Old Harry Wills Reaches The End Of The Line

"The black press at the time felt Godfrey would win."

You have done a study on the whole black press? How many papers were there? How many sportswriters? Quite a bit of research there. Or do you mean some in the black press?

"Godfrey . . . did much better against Jack Sharkey."

Sharkey beat an old Wills and a prime Godfrey. I don't see that Godfrey actually did that much better.

"The 4 best heavies of the 20's were likely Dempsey, Wills, Godfrey, and Tunney."

Why not Sharkey who defeated Godfrey and Wills?

"Godfrey beat Uzcudun" "The Risko match I read was fixed."

Both Uzcudun and Risko were tough, durable fighters. Godfrey was getting heavy by this time. He started fast but slowed during the later rounds in both fights. The disputed nod went against him with Risko. I have read that the crowd booed the decision for him against Uzcudun.

"fixed"

This is what makes it so difficult to get a line on Godfrey. He was erratic, but he and his supporters fall back on his wearing the cuffs to explain this. Is that plausible? Yes. But it is also possible Godfrey fell back on "fix excuses" to explain his underperforming to his folks.

Godfrey seems to have had more appetite for fattening food than for heavy training.

And there are plenty of foul or other losses to other black fighters. Was he wearing the cuffs for them also?

"a higher purse where Kearns and Dempsey would have said okay"

Oh, come on. It is bizarre to claim anyone would have really thought that Dempsey-Wills at any stage would not have drawn a record gate. If Kearns or Rickard ever said anything to imply such it was as a cover for their real motives in not making the fight.

"Uzcudun" "Gains"

These victories came when Tunney was champion and after Wills lost to Sharkey.

I agree with the point of view that Godfrey was not all that striking a contender prior to 1925, and we should remember that Charley Weinert, whom Wills KO'd in 1925, was actually ranked ahead of Godfrey and twice defeated the Sharkey who later beat Godfrey.

 

Godfrey's record in 1924 was 3 wins and 3 losses. Only one of those fights was against a recognizable contender, which he lost. Not exactly the record of a top contender. Godfrey was so highly regarded he didn't even make the top 15 in 1926!

Godfrey fought Langford three times. He lost the last two by KO. Langford hadn't beaten Wills since 1916. If he was a novice when he was losing all these fights, he can't simultaneously have been a viable contender and someone Wills was obliged to fight.

Tunney's claim of never having even had a black sparring partner is a direct quote in The Life of Gene Tunney by Ed van Every. In Kahn's biography of Dempsey he quotes a letter from Tunney to Tim Mara in which he affirms he had no intention of facing Wills. Kahn also says Tunney refused to take part in an elimination tournament proposed by Grantland Rice wherby the winners of Wills-Weinert and Tunney-Gibbons would meet to decide Dempsey's next challenger. Tunney argued that he deserved to face Dempsey without fighting Wills, using the strange logic that he had KO'd Gibbons and Dempsey hadn't.

 

Yes, Godfrey was in fixed fights, later on, he'd lose via DQ for low blows.

Historian Kevin Smith who focused on early Black Prizefighters agrees the cuffs were on, and so does Chuck Hasson who specializes in Philly based fighters. These are two well-researched guys on the topic.

Hasson, by the way, has his own website

[url]http://www.phillyboxinghistory.com/nonboxers/nonboxer_hasson_chuck.htm[/url]

While I agree that Godfrey wasn't a top threat until 1925, the point is his management tried to fight Wills a few times. Wills refused.

How many white contenders of the time, would want to face a bigger Godfrey who was a good puncher? I'm guessing not to many, yet we see a few who did. Not the safest path to a title shot if you ask me, but if there was a fix, it could have been.

Godfrey on film IMO looks better than Wills.

 

Roger Khan's book is fanboy stuff. And he's bitter from the long count. I would not use him for a source

Tunney offered to fight Wills. Wills refused.

 

Kahn was quoting a letter written by Tunney.

In January 1926 Tunney had already agreed in principle to face Dempsey and articles had been privately signed by March. His main target Dempsey was within reach, he's on record saying he had never fought a black opponent or even employed a black sparring partner, and he thought he was more deserving than Wills anyway. Why then would he be offering to fight an eliminator against Wills in 1926 unless the offer was insincere and for PR purposes only?

 

I'd have to ask on what a basis a guy with a 15-9-1 record and a 3-3 record for 1924 made it into the ratings. Clearly who ever was making them thought better of it since he got turfed from the ratings altogether in 1926.

A direct quote from Tunney, in the Life of Gene Tunney by Ed van Every:

"I don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings, but I have never boxed a Negro and have never even had one as a sparring partner. Somehow, it seems to me, that it is not for the best interest of boxing that heavyweights, and champions in particular, shall clash in mixed matches."

 

I said Godfrey was pretty much a nobody before 1925. He was. He had almost as many losses as wins, a spotty recent record, and no wins against serious contenders. The only basis for seeing him as otherwise is he somehow crept into a magazine's ratings list. He'd done nothing to warrant the charge that Wills was ducking him.

 

You've been provided with masses of quotes from Tunney proving your points wrong and not responded to any of them. And yes Godfrey had done nothing prior to mid 1925. You've ran for the hills on both responses and dared to come back ignoring when you're being corrected.

Nothing to say about Rickard/Tunney/Dempsey blatantly fabricating the fact Tunney challenged Wills? Thought not.

You should admit you're wrong or leave the thread

 

How would you classify a fighter who had a 15-9-1 record, went 3-3 in his last calendar year and had no wins against serious contenders? Elite? Top contender? Murderers row? Or pretty much a nobody?

 

I actually said nearly 15 years.