Old Larry Holmes (Mercer fight) vs David Tua

Ferguson gave Holmes a very close fight with some believing he won and almost had him knocked out. Tua is a much harder puncher Ferguson and a much more deadly finisher.

Whenever Tua got an opponent hurt 9 times out of 10 he normally finished them, I don't think Holmes's tactic of sitting on the ropes is a good tactical to imploy vs Tua who was also a very good body puncher.

A young Holmes had the movement and could pop that jab all night long circling around the ring like he did vs Shavers in their 1st meeting. A 40+ year old Holmes didn't have the legs anymore and whilst he still had his respectable jab, I think sitting on the ropes against a fighter who was a deadly finisher and one of the hardest hitting Heavyweights of all time is a dangerous tactic.

 

Mercer was rocked multiple times by Holmes' right, and by all accounts, I think it's safe to say that he had the better chin to Tua.

 

But only one guy ever took out Holmes and it was the least-prepared Holmes in his entire career.

I assume the Holmes who would fight Tua would come in ready and focused like he did vs. Mercer, Evander and McCall and that he probably figured he could sleepwalk through Jesse. Tua had his own less-than-inspiring performances, as I pointed out.

I don’t think the Holmes of Ferguson is on par with the Holmes of Mercer, which is who we’re discussing here. I don’t think he had a full training camp and laser focus for Jesse. And while Holmes wasn’t a stick-and-move guy at this point in his career, he was still a master boxer with a high ring IQ to go with savvy and experience. (He also wasn’t a statue, as we saw vs. McCall and Evander.) I don’t see anything that makes me think Tua can handle a master boxer … he was befuddled by lessers than Holmes.

But there’s obviously a reason for a difference of opinion here. I don’t hold Tua in as high regard as you do and I think the best version of ‘Old Larry’ was better than what we saw in the Ferguson fight. I see your points and appreciate the discussion.

 

Holmes underestimating Ferguson really is the only thing that would make sense. Holmes fought three much heavier hitters than Jesse, but The Boogeyman is the one he gets rocked against? Gotta use your head.

 

Tua lost to Byrd and Lewis, who were better than a 40+ Holmes, but beat a long list of guys who were kind of like Holmes and did really well against the ones who couldn’t move well, like Moorer and Wilson. He’d probably catch Holmes while down by a couple of rounds.

 

Holmes went 12 rounds with prime Mercer,Holy and McCall so why he couldn't outbox Tua?

 

There is a few factors one Tua's huge weapon was the left hook and Holmes wasn't really vulnerable to that punch it was right hands. Although I think Tua could have some success with his left hooks to the body. Tua also did have issues with movers or fighters with decent jabs so there is some positives for Holmes in this match up for sure.

My issue is that if Tua catches Holmes along the ropes and I think Holmes could be in alot of trouble. And Tua has KO power at any point in the fight and is a fantastic finisher.

Do I think Tua is a bit overrated ? Yes. Can i see Holmes outboxing Tua ? Yes. But i would be very hesitant making that bet as sitting on the ropes vs a deadly puncher and finisher is a very dangerous tactic unless your name is Muhammad Ali.

If this was a prime Holmes it wouldn't even be a debate Holmes would pretty much shut out Tua.

 

Let's not call Mercer a champion. He not only was just a title holder, he also held the WBO belt that wasn't highly regarded at the time.

 

Ferguson had a decent dig he had Williams on the floor twice and got alot of his bodyweight into that right hand that shook Holmes.

Holmes never took a punch as clean or as hard as that in his 2nd career to my knowledge.

 

While I agree with this, can I point out that old Holmes didn't sit on the ropes much (I'm thinking back to the Mercer and Holyfield fights)? His thing was to back into the corner and fight out of the corner. He wasn't doing the rope-a-dope, aimed at letting the opponent punch himself out. He was putting himself into a position where his opponent had to stand in front of him, with the idea being that if he didn't have to chase young guys around the ring, he could outbox them, counter them, etc -- it was an attempt at mitigating the things age had taken from him the most (legs and stamina), and forcing the fight toward situations favorable to the things age had taken from him the least (technique, reflexes, hand speed, countering ability, etc).

Not a great strategy against a big puncher though. I don't think he'd have approached Tua that way.

 

He was WBO champion. It’s the same belt Wlad and others held. All ‘new’ belts aren’t highly regarded in the moment when they come into being but to me that doesn’t work retroactively after they’ve become more established — the entire lineage becomes canon, so to speak, after that early period of skepticism.

Cruiserweight was kind of a joke when it started but no one looks back and says ‘we’ll Marvin Camel wasn’t a real champ, we only count cruiserweight champs starting with Qawi’ or whatever.

Like I’m sure the first WBA or WBC belts were met with skepticism but we don’t now look back at the early holders of those belts and say ‘nah, they don’t count.’

At what point does the WBO become recognizable to you (at heavyweight)?

I’m not saying Ray was ‘the guy’ but to me he’s no less legitimate than, say, the guys Tyson beat to ‘unify’ before he faced Michael Spinks. I think Ray’s claim should be no less than some other ‘secondary’ beltholders .. and most consider them as former champs now.

 

Yeah, I don't consider Wlad a champion either while he was holding a WBO belt for the first time. The WBO belt became the major world title in 2007 when it was recognized by all 3 other major alphabet bodies. There were 2 undisputed champions in 2006 when only holding 3 belts.

I hate this kind of rewriting of history. Was Lennox Lewis the undisputed champion to you? If so, Vitali Klitschko wasn't the champion while holding the WBO belt in 1999. If Vitali was a champion, Lennox was never undisputed. You can't have it both ways.

 

I take ‘undisputed’ literally: If there’s another legitimate claimant to a belt (no, not the WBF or WAA, lol) then the ‘main’ beltholder isn’t undisputed. He is, however, ‘the guy.’

Like there were all those other heavyweight claimants who were champions in the 1980s, but Larry Holmes was lineal and he was recognized by everyone as ‘the guy.’

So I wouldn’t say Lennox was undisputed, but he was THE champ.

 

People think you’re talking about cigarettes if you mention Marvin Camel.

 

Almost forgot to respond to this, lol.
Ferguson could definitely rock, but as you said- "Holmes never took a punch as clean or as hard as that in his 2nd career to my knowledge." A well trained and serious Holmes wouldn't be hit by something like that, he wasn't hurt that bad against more educated and dangerous fighters, so Ferguson must be an outlier.