Old Time Heavyweights Being More Skilled - Convince Me

OK.

I think it would be a bit silly to atribute better skill to any given era over another.

There were a lot more excelent trainers around in the 30s 40s and 50s but the reality is that greatness in boxing can emerge anywhere and in any period. Same with great trainers.

Barbados is not a major boxing centre, but it produced a fighter who was one of the greatest p4p fighters of all time, and who is regarded as one of the greatest welters of all time.

Talent happens when and where it happens (fighters or trainers)

 

One of the main reasons why the old time fighters are more skilled than a lot of the modern fighters is the fact that many of todays trainers don't or can't teach the old school techniques.

Jack Johnson and Archie Moore were masters of feinting and countering off head fakes. I have yet to see any fighter in boxing use these techniques. Chris Byrd tried in some fights, but mostly failed.

Another reason is the fact that most, if not all of todays fighters, except for Pacquiao and Hopkins, have very bad hand positioning. Hatton got knocked out because his hands were sitting at his ribcage. Throwing a left hook right off the jab is a lost art that barely anyone uses let alone understands its effectiveness. Nobody in boxing right now, throws a proper overhand right. I'm not talking about a straight right hand, but an overhand right that has the circular motion of a left hook but is thrown overhand in a chopping fashion.

Parrying is another lost art in boxing, especially parrying a jab with the left hand and following it up immediately with a right hand shot.

Perhaps a lot of the old time skills aren't needed as much in boxing and who knows why they aren't taught as much. Freddie Roach and Kenny Adams are good trainers in the sport today, but I don't know how much time they spend with their fighters teaching old tactics when many of them don't understand the basics.

 

I think Post 1940....Heavyweights fought with the same style/modern traits as heavyweights today do. I think many heavyweights today are fat/lazy/out of shape brining down there performance. To me on film, the most talented big men of all time(outside of Lewis, bowe, Wlad) were the 1980s alphabet soup champions.

There were a few exceptions pre 1940 fighters like Schmeling, Sharkey, Tunney, Dempsey, langford, (prob wills and godfrey), Johnson had modern like styles...but for the the most part contenders pre 1940 did not grasp the concept of a good stance high gaurd/elbows tucked, combination punching, hooking off the jab, and head movement.


If you want to be convinced...Then go purchase film of 1940s-1980s heavyweight contenders then get back to me if you think there skills are on par with todays heavyweights...because I think they are.

One example is Clarence Henry vs Bob Baker....Baker displays a tremendous jab, quick hands, and solid fundamentals plus hes 6'2 210lb. Henry on the otherhand displays true traits of a dangerous two fisted slugger capable of taking anyone out who confronts him. Contact RagingBull for a copy of this fight.

 

They're not. The knowledge and science of the sport keeps growing. Modern training techniques are more advanced.

 

Could it be that jiveass **** doesn't work for or against modern fighters? Post-Foreman heavies would just punch through those shenanigans or their likewise behemoth contemporaries would not be able to effect these actions quickly enough. There are millions of euros/dollars at stake. If it worked at the superheavy level, someone would employ it successfully.

 

There have been 300lb+ heavyweights in all eras including as far back as the 1920's. Check out Dempsey's record of opponents, or Johnson's. Strength and Power are not synonymous. To say that big heavies of today would "just punch through those shenanigans" in relationot feints, parries and head feints is way wide of the mark. Lennox Lewis was a master of the feint and in his prime regularly parried opponents jabs. It can work effectively it just isn't taught anymore cause modern trainers are more like conditioning coaches than trainers of pugilism. And the comment "Modern training techniques are more advanced" is true for almost all sports except Boxing. With all these advance why can't boxers punch any harder or indeed faster than the boxers of the 1920's and 1930's? We have improved in nutrition and conditioning but gone way way behind in ring fitness and stamina. Most fighters are more concerned with their physique and bodyfat percentage. Yet with all these "technological advances" would you bet against Harry Greb of 80yrs ago against any of today's contemporaries?? Or Jack Johnson against the likes of David Haye or Valuev? Sorry but I'll go to my grave convinced that the modern "We're bigger and stronger therefore hit harder and better" attitude to todays heavies is folly.

 

Ste Hawkins ... excellent point ...

 

Sentimental hogwash.

There are millions of euros/dollars at stake here. Are you telling me the greatest investment opportunity on the planet relies on teaching some giant oaf to roll his fists a la Jack Johnson and shuck along to an occasional feint. I think not.

Heavyweight boxing is at its most advanced state at this moment. This is the best of all possible worlds and the best of all possible divisions.

 

The crux of the matter is this.

Genuinely skilled heavyweights are few and far between and no two are quite the same.

Guys like Sullivan, Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Ali and Tyson would be phenomena in whatever era they cropped up in.

 

:good

 

I can't agree.

What heavyweight today even comes close to being as skilled or techniucaly briliant as Larry Holmes for example?

 

Maybe because the old-timers didn't weigh 999 pounds!

come on, look at today's HWs: they're a bunch of fat, slow bums. This trend started in the 70's, when Cassius Clay made his comeback as the big fat Muhammad Ali. Joe Frazier went from 205 pounds (when he beat Ali) to 215 pounds (when he lost to Foreman 1) to 225 pounds (when he lost to Foreman 2). And Foreman was just naturally big and fat all his life. If Dempsey, Louis and Marciano had fought in the 70's, those other guys would be unknown fringe contenders.

Tyson and Wlad are just two exceptions in an era of fat HWs. Even Vitali is fat. Lennox was just shameless: a big fat slob.

 

Wlad. His skillset is perfect for his athletic assets. Though Larry was certainly tougher. Larry is an ATG and still, still underrated.

(Oh, and now watch WK get KO'd in the next hour.)