Old Time Heavyweights Being More Skilled - Convince Me

Do you have any idea how many euros/dollars Wlad earned for his fight last Saturday? Are really trying to state that no one wishes to cash in on that bounty? Where perchance is the equivalent of a Quarry, Frazier or Patterson today? They have been outdated. Wake me up when the next 205 pound fighter takes any belt, let alone multiple belts.

Sentimental Hogwash.

 

Correct. The small 190-205 pound heavyweight has been out of business for over 20 years. The last sub 200 pound champion was Mike Spinks who took advantage of an older Larry Holmes. That was over 23 years ago. Had Holmes been closer to his prime, we would have to go back to the 1970's to find a 190-205 pound champion.

If 190-205 was the ideal weight, you see fighters at that weight trying to gunning for heavyweight dollars in every year of the past two decades.

Facts are facts.

 

Seamus, I never mentioned weighing 205lbs as an issue. I mentioned 238lbs as an example and my point was not about weight but about lost skills. There have been 19 stone fighters for the last 100yrs. Size beyond 15 stone is not synonymous with more power. Thats not sentimental hogwash its PROVEN PHYSIOLOGY. You bang on about bigger is better, try convincing me that the big 18stone HW of today are more powerful punchers than a Marciano or Jack Johnson. What did Foreman and Shavers weigh in their prime? Notmuch more than 15 and a half stone.
Haven't even covered Holyfield who was only 15 and a half stone in his prime when unifying titles at HW. And a young lad named Tyson was around 15 and a half stone in his prime, unifying titles at HW. Oh, forgot to mention RJJ, believe he whupped Ruiz for the title to "cash in on that bounty". I never mentioned weight I mentioned the lost art of the sweet science at HW. But I also disagree with you on size making the huge difference you seem to think it does.

 

There are exceptions. But these days bigger generally means better until you get past around the 230 lb mark. After that size difference does not seem to be relevent. But I would bet all the money I have that the hardest punching 240 pounder in the world will always punch harder than any 200 pounder.

 

I whole-heartedly agree. And there is no way on earth that Marciano or Johnson hit as hard as either Klitchko. It just isn't so. And don't tell me about any trumped up PSI tests.

My point earlier is that the skillset for 200 pound/6-foot fighters is different than that for a 6-6 245 fighter. One of the first things I was taught in a gym was to fight to my assets, i.e. if I was the shorter fighter, get shorter, the stronger fighter, fight stronger... A 6-6 guy has no business fighting the same as a 6 footer. He has to use his length and height, his size making the ring smaller. So comparing skillsets from generations where there were few giants to one composed almost soley of giants is dubious at best.

 

And comparing past giants such as Willard or Simon to modern super heavyweights like Bowe, Lewis or Klitschko is dubious at best. The modern big fighters had far more skill than history's past giants. Yet we see it all the time.

Could you image what Klitshcko would do with the lighter 40's or 50's gloves if he was matches vs sub 200 pound fighters?

 

As have been pointed out, there must be a reason why guys below 205 lbs have disappeared from the HW elite. Part of it is of course the 12 rounds distance, and it's also true that you could shave off 20+ pound fat off of some top heavies. But we should also be real about that 185-200 lbs guys (no matter how trim) has probably done their bit as top dogs in the HW division. A 185 lbs guy today is a LHW, and no matter the number of rounds I don't see too many of those challenging top HWs without putting on muscle.

But it should also be noted that Roy Jones at 195 lbs aboslutely schooled a top heavy, and that Holyfield was the best HW for a couple of years at 205. A 46 year old Holyfield also beat (on a fair scorcerad) the biggest guy out there.

It's going to be interesting to see what Haye can do.

 

190lb (with clothes so more likely 185lbs) Roy Jones did pretty easily, much much much more easily than Chagaev managed

Holyfield was prime at 205lbs beating Bowe, Tyson and giving Lennox 1 of his toughest fights past his prime. HE even beat the WBA 330lb Valuev at 46!!!!! The 205lb Holyfield would beat both Klits

 

Could it simply be that once a fighter steps up from cruiserwight and is no longer restricted to coming in under 200lbs he is able to bulk up to 220 lbs or more?

Therfopre there are no champions between 200 and 220 lbs because there are simply no fighters between 200 and 220 lbs period?

If such fighters do exist then who are they and here are they curently campaigning?

 

He was over 210 for all of those fights. He was 205 in the first fight with Bowe, but lost clearly.

You can use the Holyfield example both ways. You can state that he was the best HW for about two years weighing just 205, but you can also say that even though he was the best HW under 210 since Frazier he was in reality 4-1 against the most skilled big guys of his era.

 

Yes you can argue it both ways but I have a hard time believeing that Holyfield would just get steamrolled if he came into all these fights at 205 lbs or even 195.

 

Except there is far more money to be made in Basketball, Football etc etc, boxing is a fringe sport that gets the left overs these days. There are less boxing gyms, less people box so the talent pool is much smaller.

There's not much point discussing it with you, you clearly have no clue about boxing skills

 

In the fights he was over 210 he was considered past prime. He lost against Bowe because he fought the wrong fight rather than being too small and 5-10lbs doesn't change a fight too much at this level. He beat Holmes and Foreman weighing low 200s

 

He did fight the wrong fight, but being to small had a lot to do with his loss, I'd say. He just gets worn down by battling with Bowe. He clearly has more skill and speed, but that isn't enough.

I suppose there must be a reason why he put on seven pounds of muscle for the rematch. They could have figured it would give him the extra power and strength he needed for the times he decided to slug it out with Bowe. I'm also not sure he would have been succesful fighting Tyson the way he did just weighing 205 instead of the 215 he came in at.

Anyhow, no one under 210 lbs have so far been very succesful against any of the modern skilled giants. That's a fact.

 

Archie Moore >>>>>> Nikolay Valuev.