On a scale of 1 to 5 what chance do you give a peak Rocky Marciano of beating a peak Larry Holmes?

So it's odd of me on a boxing forum to ask you a simple boxing related question why Holmes's 14 inch reach advantage wouldn't be a huge factor in the fight ? Ok. I guess I'm odd for wanting a boxing conversation on a boxing forum.

Holmes at 35 with over 20 championship fights was not that far removed from his prime I've heard it all now.

So me saying that Marciano struggled against much smaller fighters is stupid and yet in turn you think that is a positive for Marciano against bigger stronger elite Heavyweights I think there's something wrong with the logic here.

Yes I brought up reach as its a very significant advantage 14 inches against a fighter who an ATG jab and a master at boxing at range.

No one is saying a smaller fighter can't beat a fighter with a longer reach but you're comparing Tyson to Marciano for crying out loud. One of the fastest most athletically gifted Heavyweights of all time with amazing defense. There's absolutely 0 comparison to the far slower crouching 185 pound 67 inch reach Marciano to a 220 pound unit like Tyson. And not only that you're using a 38 year old Holmes again how is that relevant to a prime Holmes ? And how is Tyson relevant to Marciano ? There is 0 relevance.

I'm not trying to own anything what are you talking about ? I asked you a simple question how would Marciano be able to consistently make this an inside fight against a fighter with a 14 inch reach advantage who's a master at boxing at range with his ATG jab. You then replied with "other smaller fighters with high workrate have seriously troubled Holmes". And you haven't gave me any real examples and you've not given any strong argument why Marciano should be favoured stylistically.

 

I acknowledged it, called this a close fight, and i am wondering why you think Marciano's significant advantages such as stamina and power and style arent significant here

He wasnt, and it is not a controversial take

Holmes struggled against a similar sized fighter to the ones Marciano struggled less with in Spinks, only the fighters Marciano faced were also better

I agree. Ergo the early rounds are going to be rough. Holmes cant do that **** for 15 tho and has struggled against men far less accomplished than Marciano. Yknow, Marciano, that dude who achieved everything there is that he couldve done in boxing and is an undisputable all time great both p4p and at heavyweight.

Marciano isnt far slower (not sure where this rhetoric came from on here, anyone who actually watched Marciano in his prime knows he wasnt slow) and doesnt need to be as good as Tyson to beat Holmes, any version of Holmes also loses to that version of Tyson. Not sure why you put "crouching" as if its some negative attribute of Marciano's, i literally guarantee that it would frustrate the hell out of Holmes

Because we have gone back and forth a billion times over the same points. You value physical attributes and i value actual accomplishments and the showings of both fighters as well as stylistic arguments. I never said "other smaller fighters with higher workrate" specifically, you are genuinely going schizophrenic because that is what you said, not i. I said swarmers have given him issues and smaller fighters have given him issues, separately. And smaller swarmers have given men EXTREMELY SIMILAR to Holmes issues literally ALL THROUGHOUT BOXING HISTORY. I am sorry that Marciano did not beat the **** out of and stop some random 6'3 210lbs contender, they were all too busy being destroyed by Archie Moore. We are never going to agree on this because we fundamentally value different things. There is no point in debating this. I dont think the size matters that much. You think its basically the end all be all. Move on.

 

0 chance

 

Oh geez!

 

And i'm wondering how you think 5'10 67 inch reach Marciano is going to make it an inside fight against a master boxer who's 6'3 with 81 inch reach it makes no logical sense.

Yeah it is a controversial take infact it's a very poor take Holmes had been slipping since the Witherspoon fight in 1983 he was considerably past his best with some extra timber around the mid section against Spinks that's plainly obvious to most fans apart from you apparently.

Again you keep saying this you even said "i could list countless examples" so where are the examples of Holmes struggling against fighters of similar size to Marciano with his style ? give me them and stop beating around the bush because i've asked 3 times now and yet you've failed to answer so i'll take that as you're just saying it for the sake of it.

Holmes went into deep water late in fights plenty of times with far bigger fighters than Marciano like Cooney, Norton, Berbick, Witherspoon, and showed excellent stamina in each fight so i have no idea why you think he couldn't go the distance with a Cruiserweight.

Yes Marciano is far slower than Tyson that isn't even debatable.

Why would Marciano's crouching style be a problem for Holmes ? Holmes would keep his poise and pepper Marciano at range with his superior reach.

We haven't gone back and forth a million times i don't think i've ever really engaged with you on this forum, i asked you a simple question and i don't think you've put forth any good arguments in regards to factual statements to Holmes career nor logical statements in regards to Marciano being favoured stylistically.

If you want to end this debate though i'm fine with that.

 

Do you not even read what you say? It is literally just you going "no u" to my arguments. If you think Tyson is ridiculously faster than Marciano, or that Holmes was genuinely shot to **** for the Spinks fights instead of somewhat past it but still good, there is just genuinely nothing to say here. Your logic is overly simplistic (on purpose, because you are trying to bait) and you really have shown nothing in terms of good arguments in regards to why a shorter reached fighter cant get on the inside (simply asserting it is common sense, essentially, when you are dead wrong and cant prove it) when Marciano did it his entire career and against notable better movers than Holmes, and against people who hit harder than Holmes (nevermind the ENTIRETY of boxing history showing that it is possible to get on the inside of someone with a much longer reach. Like go pick out a random fight on boxrec and it will 50/50 chance be a shorter reach fighter beating a longer reach fighter).

Just drop it. It doesnt matter. You arent even reading my comments, or else you wouldnt have asked once again for someone who is marciano's size and a swarmer, when i said he had struggled against swarmers AND people Marciano's size (THESE ARE SEPARATE CATEGORIES.), and that others who FOUGHT SIMILAR TO HOLMES struggled against smaller swarmers. I HAVE HAD TO SAY THIS 3 TIMES TO YOU. And yet you still come off as some smug, cocky highschool debater who thinks he's kicking my ass when youre just spewing the same rhetoric constantly and not reading what i am saying.

I have asked you multiple times to drop it. Any and every single comment you made here and in every other comment was already answered in my previous comments, go reread and if you disagree on something i asserted then simply continue having your opinion and drop the argument (ex. Tyson being MUCH faster than Marciano). Do not reply to this comment. Just drop it. I disagree with you on such a fundamental level on so many things that there is no point in even talking about it.

 

I don't even know what you're even on about to be quite honest I'm not being overly "simplistic" you're examples are just poor and you're even being dishonest trying to make out Holmes was close to his prime vs Spinks which is utterly false.

How am i baiting ? all i've done is ask you countless times to give me examples of fighters similar to Marciano's size and style who troubled Holmes and you've not gave me any good examples. That's not me baiting that's me asking you to back up your original statement which you've failed to do

Marciano has 0 wins against any prime elite Heavyweight over 200 pounds who were close to Holmes's dimensions. So how can you evidently say Marciano can make it an inside fight when we have no evidence of Marciano doing such a thing against a considerably bigger prime elite Heavyweight with a huge reach advantage ?

You're not backing up anything with any logic because not only does your comment make 0 logical sense that stylistically a crouching Marciano can overcome a 14 inch reach disadvantage against a master boxer who has one of the best jabs of all time and one of the best fighters fighting at range. We have 0 evidence of Marciano actually doing such a thing against a far bigger elite prime Heavyweight.

So no it doesn't make any logical sense to me that slugger with a 14 inch reach disadvantage could consistently make it an inside fight against someone of the level of Holmes.

Again what are you even on about ? i'm not trying to "kick your ass" i've simply asked you to give me an example of a fighter who was a small as Marciano with a similar style who gave Holmes and you've haven't answered it even though i've asked you 4 times.

I'll give you an example in Berbick who had a good engine and tried to swarm Holmes and he lost virtually every round in the fight.

So if you can name me another fighter go ahead.

Don't tell me what i can or can't do i've done nothing here so don't try and paint a picture like i'm some type of bad guy here. I simply engaged you in conversation and asked you to expand on what you said which you've failed to do.

I said before if you want to end this debate i'm fine with that but don't have digs at me and then expect me not to reply back.

 

Every single one of your replies had digs at me

 

It really isn't i have nothing against you i don't think we've ever really engaged before maybe our wires got crossed somewhere ? but honestly i'm not trying to have a dig at you if it come across that way i apologize to you. We can end this conversation on a good note i don't want any ill feelings.

 

Nostalgia has Rocky getting the **** beat out of him for 14.5 rounds then coming back for a 1 punch knockout. Reality is different eras and skill set. Holmes flattens him in the first round.

 

Ah, it just came off that way, but tone is difficult to read over the internet. My bad on assuming, I'm probably jaded due to arguments with Seamus and other similar types. Water under the bridge but I am gonna call it quits on the argument, I'm sure some other notable figure can take my place. Maybe Janitor, if he ever joins the thread

 

Most insane comment i have ever seen in my entire life, and yet people are complaining about the Marciano side, lol