On ESB Ali is underrated and Whitaker is overrated.

Addie · Aug 2, 2009

keure said: ↑

Addie said: ↑

The computer fight holds about as much weight as you do.

If you want to debate who has the better resume between Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali I'm all for it.

Don't want to hear about the Klitschko's. Okay champions, dominating an abysmal era consisting of lazy out of shape contenders.

I don't want to belittle Marciano. He fought everybody and was successful every time out. I don't see any argument that he should be rated above Muhammad Ali though. Compare resume, compare skillsets, and compare longevity.[/quote

the argument of level of opposition is pretty weak because its all relative to the eras they fought, who is to say that some of the fighters( outside of frazier, and foreman , and possibly norton) would have been succesful in marcianos era. The bottom line is marciano beat everyone, never defeated, ali lost so, even though some can make the argument that ali's comp was better which once again is not an exact science so, i dont understand why that holds any signifigance. But even if it was better ali lost a few times to better comp and marciano never lost to lesser comp, so i'd say there accomplishments are even. Longevity is irrelevant because ali looked horrible at the end of his career, and marciano due to injury was forced in to retirement. Skillset depends on what skills, physical and mental toughness i'd say they were dead even, conditioning dead even. power definately marciano, speed definately ali. I personally would say all in all that they are the 2 best heavys of all time, with it being very difficult to make an argument as to whom is better. The media did indeed make ali far more infamous than his great abilitys did which is why he is the popular pick.
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I was going to decipher each sentence, but then I realized none of it was really worth it.
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Cruiser1 · Aug 2, 2009

Motorhead said: ↑

Ali is the hero of all the 1960s liberals who went on to become sportswriters. They helped
forge his mythology in the American media, which then spread throughout the world.

I don't know if Ali is overrated as much as exaggerated. The
media made him appear bigger than life. He certainly was a
great heavyweight, but is he the "Greatest of All Time?" What
about Rocky Marciano, who retired undefeated? It's hard to
argue with perfection. But Maricano was white, and that doesn't
fit the liberal American media's romanticized view of the trash-talking
black American heavyweight champ. Ditto for the Klitschkos, who are
also unloved by many in the American boxing media.
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Excellent post.

applez · Aug 2, 2009

Jackolythe said: ↑

You're full of ****. Never seen one statement on this board claiming that Pernell is top 5 All time in boxing. Show me one or I call BS.
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he's the number 1 goat

Jackolythe · Aug 2, 2009

applez said: ↑

he's the number 1 goat
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Dammit I just got blocked Screw you :fy

RafaelGonzal · Aug 2, 2009

keure said: ↑

Addie said: ↑

The computer fight holds about as much weight as you do.

If you want to debate who has the better resume between Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali I'm all for it.

Don't want to hear about the Klitschko's. Okay champions, dominating an abysmal era consisting of lazy out of shape contenders.

I don't want to belittle Marciano. He fought everybody and was successful every time out. I don't see any argument that he should be rated above Muhammad Ali though. Compare resume, compare skillsets, and compare longevity.[/quote

the argument of level of opposition is pretty weak because its all relative to the eras they fought, who is to say that some of the fighters( outside of frazier, and foreman , and possibly norton) would have been succesful in marcianos era. The bottom line is marciano beat everyone, never defeated, ali lost so, even though some can make the argument that ali's comp was better which once again is not an exact science so, i dont understand why that holds any signifigance. But even if it was better ali lost a few times to better comp and marciano never lost to lesser comp, so i'd say there accomplishments are even. Longevity is irrelevant because ali looked horrible at the end of his career, and marciano due to injury was forced in to retirement. Skillset depends on what skills, physical and mental toughness i'd say they were dead even, conditioning dead even. power definately marciano, speed definately ali. I personally would say all in all that they are the 2 best heavys of all time, with it being very difficult to make an argument as to whom is better. The media did indeed make ali far more infamous than his great abilitys did which is why he is the popular pick.
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you make very good points but there is one thing that makes you argument very weak, The point of giving an undefeated record way too much weight. Had Marciano hung around and fought Liston you think he would still have been undefeated. Its really poinless but the 0 is overrated.
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BlueApollo · Aug 2, 2009

Motorhead said: ↑

keure said: ↑

Excellent post. Ali's rise coincided with the rise of the media in America: he was the first superstar boxer of the multi-media age. Anyone who doesn't think this had a HUGE impact on his elevation to the status of "The Greatest" is either ignorant of the facts or just deluded. Marciano is unlucky to have been boxing in the previous era, and as a white fighter he wasn't the politically fashionable boxer to promote in an age of civil rights battles and black power, so his achievements were downplayed and even ignored by the next generation of media people. Ali was in the right place at the right time, and took advantage of the opportunity. He was not just a boxing icon, but a political icon.
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Let's also not forget that part of "taking advantage" of the opportunity involved fighting a murderers row of great heavyweight champions and contenders, and not just fighting them but beating them in fights that will never be forgotten. You can call this hype, but the tape doesn't lie. I agree that Marciano might deserve more limelight as well, but let's not pretend that Ali didn't fully deserve his.

As for Whitaker, I'll just say that I can live with a fighter that damned good being "overrated".
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Carlos Primera · Aug 2, 2009

Motorhead said: ↑

Ali is the hero of all the 1960s liberals who went on to become sportswriters. They helped
forge his mythology in the American media, which then spread throughout the world.

I don't know if Ali is overrated as much as exaggerated. The
media made him appear bigger than life. He certainly was a
great heavyweight, but is he the "Greatest of All Time?" What
about Rocky Marciano, who retired undefeated? It's hard to
argue with perfection. But Maricano was white, and that doesn't
fit the liberal American media's romanticized view of the trash-talking
black American heavyweight champ. Ditto for the Klitschkos, who are
also unloved by many in the American boxing media.
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so ali being greater than the marciano has more to do with the liberal media, than him being the most accomplished fighter of the heavyweight golden age?

i'm a klit fan, but that bit about the klits is worthy of addition to fighting weight's klitschko QOTW series.

Dirty Bastard · Aug 2, 2009

WOW.....Sweet Pea is my favorite fighter of all time....

Who the **** is mad enough to put him in top 5 P4P....They are mad...!

Another thing to remember there are allot of Brits on here who i must say know sweet **** all about boxing! Some however are pretty knowlegable. but there is a vast majority that kid themselves my opinion as to why there is a great deal of bias on these forums!!!

JuanMa · Aug 2, 2009

Ali is sometimes underrated by some on these boards, but for the most part most esb'rs rank him appropriately.

Thom · Aug 2, 2009

Motorhead said: ↑

Ali is the hero of all the 1960s liberals who went on to become sportswriters. They helped
forge his mythology in the American media, which then spread throughout the world.

I don't know if Ali is overrated as much as exaggerated. The
media made him appear bigger than life. He certainly was a
great heavyweight, but is he the "Greatest of All Time?" What
about Rocky Marciano, who retired undefeated? It's hard to
argue with perfection. But Maricano was white, and that doesn't
fit the liberal American media's romanticized view of the trash-talking
black American heavyweight champ. Ditto for the Klitschkos, who are
also unloved by many in the American boxing media.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, the nefarious liberal anti-white conspiracy which, strangely enough, is perpetrated by a bunch of white sport writers.

You don't actually believe the ****ing nonsense that you've written here, do you?

BlueApollo · Aug 2, 2009

Thom said: ↑

Ah yeah, the nefarious Liberal anti-white conspiracy which, strangely enough, is perpetrated by a bunch of white sport writers.

You don't actually believe the ****ing nonsense that you've written here, do you?
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:yep

Thom · Aug 2, 2009

Motorhead said: ↑

White liberals are the most self-loathing people you'll meet.
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Okay. So, let's see if I have this straight. The comparative rankings of dominant fighters from different eras like the Klitschkos, Marciano, Ali, Louis etc. are not predicated upon their resumes, the manner in which they won fights, the quality of the talent in their era, whether or not they avenged any losses or their longevity but rather whether or not the men the who analyze their careers happen to like what they see when they look in the mirror. Because we all know that any white guy who would rate a black fighter over a white fighter must just despise himself.

:-(

Why is it that the most ridiculous posts on this forum are always made by the Klitschko supporters?

Danny_Rand · Aug 2, 2009

Roberto Duran and Julio cesar Chavez are waaaay more overrated then Whitaker.

PopeJackson · Aug 2, 2009

Motorhead said: ↑

White liberals are the most self-loathing people you'll meet.
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I agree. I've never seen a bigger group of self race-betraying pussies. Not that there's anything wrong with that :tired

kosaros · Aug 2, 2009

Motorhead said: ↑

Ali is the hero of all the 1960s liberals who went on to become sportswriters. They helped
forge his mythology in the American media, which then spread throughout the world.

I don't know if Ali is overrated as much as exaggerated. The
media made him appear bigger than life. He certainly was a
great heavyweight, but is he the "Greatest of All Time?" What
about Rocky Marciano, who retired undefeated? It's hard to
argue with perfection. But Maricano was white, and that doesn't
fit the liberal American media's romanticized view of the trash-talking
black American heavyweight champ. Ditto for the Klitschkos, who are
also unloved by many in the American boxing media.
Click to expand...

atsch

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