On Jim Jeffries 75th birthday he was interviewed by Fleischer

Fairly reliably recorded is open to interpretation ,wouldn't you say?
I am not familiar with Dean Karnazes,so no comment there.
I'm not a Jeffries hater ,the man was a physical marvel for his times,and Im sure he was very athletic,especially for a man of his size,I am just dubious about his capability to" win at least two gold medals".
It doesn't suit my position to demean Jeffries ,he was an Iron Man,the best Champion up to then imo.Its no secret Mendoza and I don't get along, but that shouldn't and doesn't mean I can't be objective about his idol Jeffries.
Corbett allways spoke very highly of Jeffries sprint finish when they did roadwork together ,so we know" the meat is on the bone", so to speak.
Being of gold medal standard is another kettle of fish however,even in the fledgling days of the Olympics imo.
I think that's a reasonable attitude to take.
If you make claims like that , the onus is on you to prove them I think,not accepting them without confirmation is common sense I think, not crassness.

 

I think that you are right to be skeptical about these claims but should not view the matter like a light switch, as in yes or no.

The person questioning the claim has as much interest in proving or disproving it as the person putting it forward.

 

If I said that according to, say Denzil Batchelor ,Jack Dempsey could jump 6foot 6in high,and could have won two gold medals, I think posters on here would want me to prove it , dont you?

 

Even though your talking to Janitor here, I feel compelled to reply.

I showed you where the genesis of the source, you saw the reference in books, and I showed you the Olympic results from 1896. It seems your still not satisfied

If you doubt something that is taken as a given, the onus is on you to disprove it, not the person who providing the information.

As far as sprinters speed, it doesn't matter a whole lot in boxing. What does matter is footwork, agility, coordination, rhythm and such. The 1901 training clips show Jeffries had this better than any man his size.

 

I dont want to drag this out because talking to a closed mind is an exercise in futility..


I boxed on and off for around 14 years so I know a little of what is needed in the ring, what is your personal experience of boxing?

You based your assessment of Jeffries footwork ,coordination ,rythmn ,and agility,on a couple of seconds of training clips.
There is NO footage extant of Jeffries exhibiting these qualities, in actual fights.

You showed me NOTHING , what you posted was a 4th hand quote from a book you have not read and have no idea of the sources from which the information was gleaned.
The 1896 Olympic times are readily available ,I looked them up myself.



Point 1. The source is a sentence from a book by John Durant, an author who wrote two books on boxing and several on baseball and other subjects. It was published in 1960 and reprinted about 5 times. Its called "The Heavyweight Champions".

Point2 . There is no source provided for Durant's statement,so it is no more valid than me saying Riddick Bowe could run a 100 metres in 9 seconds.
I'm guessing you haven't even seen the book let alone read it.
You got your 4th hand information from Monte Cox's quote ,which he in turn got from Durant's book .
Point 3. Where Durant obtained his information from has never been explained.
Point 4. NO -ONE has provided confirmation of the times you have attributed to Jeffries.

It is possible Adam Pollack may have definitive proof either way on this, I shall buy his book when it comes out and we may then know..
IF Pollack has unearthed substantiated PROOF that Jeffries DID acheive those times .I will concede the point to you,I won't say Jeffries WOULD have won two or more gold medals,what I will agree is that he would have been a viable competitor in the High Jump and 100 yards dash.

I won't ask you to do the same , and concede you are wrong, if Pollack disproves these times ,because that would be patently beyond you,as you have never admitted to being wrong on this forum .

James Jackson Jeffries was a great champion of his times, but he was not SUPERMAN.

Can we now leave this ?

 

My experiences in combat sports includes wrestling, boxing and karate. I have been in a boxing ring before in the gym, and with an opponent and referee. I also go to a boxing gym every now and to hit the heavy bag, double end bag, and speed bag. If you go to the training section of this board, you might see me share a tip or two.

Jeffries workout clips do not last seconds, they last minutes. You'd have to be either a novice or blind not to be impressed. Or in your case maybe its an agenda. The Youtube training clips are there, but they do not include about half of the stuff. Watch it sometime.

As I said in a previous thread, you have not seen the films I have. We have been over this before, but I'll go over it again. In this case

1 ) There is a 8 second clip of Sharkey vs Jeffires II ( Non-bootleg )with Shakrey charing in a firing a left hook from the floor to the rafters, with Jeffires cleanly ducking it. I posted the never seen before picture here a while back.

2 ) The full Johnson Jeffries fight exists. Not just rounds 1, 4, 7, and 13-15. You might be surprised that Jeffries, even as an old man makes Johnson miss every now and then.

3 ) There is a clip of Jeffries hitting a full heavy bag. He looks like Liston hitting the bag.

4 ) There is a sparring clip between Jeffries and Ryan, and Jeffries doing road work.

I tend to doubt you have seen any of the above.

Regarding the track stuff, I showed where the data came from. ( East side LA Athletic club ) You just aren't happy with the explanation.

 

Mendoza, are these Jeffries clips you are refering to on Youtube ?

 

"If you doubt something that is taken as a given, the onus is on you to disprove it, not the person who (is) providing the information."


I don't know if I should step in here, but I was training in my misspent youth as a historian before I moved on to other things. This is simply not the way history works. If someone challenges an historical claim, the onus is on the person making that claim to provide his evidence for the obvious reason that it is generally impossible to provide negative historical evidence. There is not going to be a newspaper account saying Jeffries did not run 100 yards in 10 seconds.

It is fair to ask what is the original source? On what day did Jeffries run this or that speed in 100 yards? On what day did he jump this or that height? Who measured these performances? Was it in some sort of official track meet, or could any speed or height claimed for him be hype put out by a flack?

Secondary sources, as has been proven on this board, often get facts wrong. The New York Times in their obituary of Jack Munroe had him knocking Jeffries down for a nine count. You don't accept that, do you? It is reasonable for someone to ask for proof of Jeff's putative track performances.

 

The Jeffries bagwork that you mentioned would silence a LOT of critics who claim that he doesn't hit very hard. Is there any chance that you could upload it, or do you know where we might find it?

 

cross trainer, is that really you?

 

'Tis. But I'm only really able to pop into the forum occasionally until around Christmastime. :good

 

I am sorry because in the main I like your posts but this won't wash.
If you make a statement ,particularly one as sweeping as Mendoza's ,the burden of proof is on you to substantiate
it
Regarding Jeffiries blow out of Munroe
, He may have felt obliged to quell any rumours, and,have an easy night ,into the bargain,certainly an easier night than facing Jack Johnson.
ps I dont think for a moment that Munroe knocked Jeffries down.

 

You do realize that if everyone here questioned the every part of boxing's written history, much of what is written would come into question.

If you disagree, the onus is on you to provide information. Otherwise what has been passed down is correct more often than not.

 

M ,I don't know what time it is where you are ,but I am about all out of arguments on Mr Jim Jeffries, I realize he is your no 1 man and thats fine.

How about if we leave this until Pollacks book comes out?

Who knows we might even find some common ground?
If Jeffries comes out of this with flying colours I will be the first to ackownledge it OK?

 

Yes, there is a chance. I can ask. However I do not own the tape. I could only ask the owner if he would be willing to upload it.

The bag work is as impressive as the youtube workouts. The bag moves with a jolt every time Jeffries hits it. Jeffries can also reverse a bag's direction/momentum by hitting it, which is impressive on a large bag. The heavy bags in those days were not filled with foam. They were filled with sand. I'll ask a favor if it can be uploaded. Most here who know boxing will be convinced rather quickly. A certain other poster will want the bag weight verified. JK, Mcvey.

The best way to judge power is KO's on film. The best Ko's are often when the other fighter falls face first. For what its worth Jeffries said almost all of his KO victims fell face first.