Once and for all, change the name. These guys do not descend from Joe Louis.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by choklab, Dec 7, 2022.


Page 3 of 7
  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    No he beat the man holding HW titles.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 8, 2022
    lufcrazy, Dec 8, 2022
    #31
  2. Manfred

    Manfred Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    22,210
    5,428
    May 22, 2011
     
    Manfred, Dec 8, 2022
    Manfred, Dec 8, 2022
    #32
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,676
    7,669
    Dec 31, 2009
    He beat a SHW holding what in all but name is the professional SHW title.

    The traditional heavyweight division stopped descending from Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali once Amateur champions from the SHW division began winning the professional titles in the division that had been previously occupied by the real heavyweight’s.

    From then onwards it became the proper SHW division. Albeit in all but name. Because it obviously has the wrong label.

    Real heavyweights who come from the real heavyweight division are incorrectly labelled cruiserweights in the pros because of this. And it is wrong!
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
    choklab, Dec 8, 2022
    choklab, Dec 8, 2022
    #33
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    Your way doesn't work. You can't even name the Choklab HW champion without googling it first.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 9, 2022
    lufcrazy, Dec 9, 2022
    #34
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,676
    7,669
    Dec 31, 2009
    Don’t insult me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2022
    choklab, Dec 9, 2022
    choklab, Dec 9, 2022
    #35
  6. JunlongXiFan

    JunlongXiFan Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,178
    6,646
    Aug 9, 2020
    There will be a day in my lifetime when most serious heavyweight contenders are 300+ pounds and people will still be saying that Jack Dempsey would run them over lol
     
    JunlongXiFan, Dec 9, 2022
    JunlongXiFan, Dec 9, 2022
    #36
    mirexxa likes this.
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    It's true. And what's more he doesn't consider himself heavyweight champion neither.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 9, 2022
    lufcrazy, Dec 9, 2022
    #37
  8. mirexxa

    mirexxa Heavyweight Champ Full Member

    993
    938
    Jan 21, 2022
    Historically it's always been the HW champion. A fighter wants to win the same title that Ali or Tyson or Louis once held and not some modern SHW crap
     
    mirexxa, Dec 9, 2022
    mirexxa, Dec 9, 2022
    #38
    Particle Man and cuchulain like this.
  9. GGGfans

    GGGfans Active Member Full Member

    1,262
    1,839
    Dec 27, 2017
    With cutting the current middleweights also have nothing to do with Robinson/LaMotta/Cerdan.
     
    GGGfans, Dec 9, 2022
    GGGfans, Dec 9, 2022
    #39
    mirexxa likes this.
  10. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

    38,679
    13,477
    Jan 6, 2007
    No Chok, when I point out to you that your argument relies on statements that are patently false, that is not splitting hairs.

    You stated: "All professionals start in the Amateurs."

    I pointed out that this was false, and gave you several examples as to why it was false.

    Your response ?
    "Splitting hairs."

    It's evident that you don't know what that metaphor means.

    1) They are not so-called heavyweights. If they fight professionally above 200 lbs, they ARE Heavyeweights by definition.

    2) How Chokolab defines them is irrelevant, as he holds no standing with any of the governing bodies who define the limits of the weight divisions.

    This is a fairly straightforward concept, and the fact that you can't grasp it, calls into question your ability to reason.


    No, lad, they don't!

    By definition, when they enter the pros, they become heavyweights.

    If they were to remain in then ams, then they would remain SHWs, but there is no SHW division in the pros, and so your statement...

    "By definition they remain SHW"

    ...is not just false, it's absurd.
     
    cuchulain, Dec 9, 2022
    cuchulain, Dec 9, 2022
    #40
    Entaowed likes this.
  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,676
    7,669
    Dec 31, 2009
    There is an inconsequential number of top fighters who never fought pro. It is true There is a majority of SHW Amatuers who turn pro without getting any smaller upon entering the pro ranks.

    whether you believe this or not has absolutely nothing to do with boxing.

    a SHW becomes a “so called” heavyweight when he is incorrectly called something else. He becomes a “so called” heavyweight when he turns pro because he stops being called a SHW. And that’s wrong.

    If the division were labelled correctly he would be fighting in the SHW division. He was SHW before and he is now in a wrongly named weight class among SHW pro fighters.

    but it makes no sense if they are first Superheavyweight boxers. It also makes less sense when they still ARE superheavyweights.

    Every Superheavyweight who turns pro is in the professionals. And that’s why you can’t say “there are no SHWs in professional boxing”. They are there! The division is already there!
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    choklab, Dec 10, 2022
    choklab, Dec 10, 2022
    #41
  12. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

    38,679
    13,477
    Jan 6, 2007
    You said "All professionals start in the Amateurs."
    This was factually wrong.
    When you build your arguments on statements that are obviously false, your argument is in trouble.


    No, but it has everything to do with evaluating the quality of your argument.

    No, that's where your reasoning ability fails you.

    When he leaves a sport that HAS SHWs, and enters a sport that DOES NOT have a SHW division, then he ceases to be a SHW.

    No, you're still not getting it, Chok. They weren't first SHWs in Professional boxing...they were in AMATEUR boxing, but Pro boxing has no such category, therefore they were never SHWs in Pro boxing since no such category exists.


    True


    Yes you can. “there are no SHWs in professional boxing”.

    What they were in a different sport BEFORE they became pros, has no bearing on how they are categorized in the pros.
     
    cuchulain, Dec 10, 2022
    cuchulain, Dec 10, 2022
    #42
    Entaowed likes this.
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,676
    7,669
    Dec 31, 2009
    No you cannot take away their previous existence. You can incorrectly label them, which is what has been going on since SHW became a division in Olympic boxing.

    so you agree they ARE superheavyweight to begin with? Thank you for your honesty.

    yet The exact same people exist under another name. A whole division worth.


    The category does exist. It just has the wrong name. When a SHW boxer turns pro he doesn’t stop being a SHW sized boxer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022
    choklab, Dec 10, 2022
    choklab, Dec 10, 2022
    #43
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,676
    7,669
    Dec 31, 2009
    it’s still boxing. Equivalent divisions exist under other names. But it’s the same.
     
    choklab, Dec 10, 2022
    choklab, Dec 10, 2022
    #44
  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

    82,092
    22,236
    Sep 15, 2009
    So any fighter, fighting above 200 pounds is a SHW by your definition?

    Joe Frazier regularly fought above 200 pounds, but I've never heard him referred to as a SHW.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 11, 2022
    lufcrazy, Dec 11, 2022
    #45
Page 3 of 7