Once and For All: Fury-Vlad & AJ-Vlad are NOT Equal Wins

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Slyk, Oct 12, 2021.



  1. navigator

    navigator "Billy Graham? He's my man." banned Full Member

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    So, on one page I'll read that Usyk-Joshua was a better win than Fury-Wilder III because it was 'more technical and stuff' (typically coming from people who don't know how to throw a left hook or even how to correctly wrap to hit a heavybag without having sore hands for a week), but on another page I'll expect to read some of the same people saying that Joshua-Klitschko was a better win than Fury-Klitschko because it was 'more exciting and stuff'.

    Okay. I see how this game is played.


    The primary consideration in assessing the integrity of these two victories should always be that Wlad was the champion coming off a decade of rule (or six years, if you only count from when the new lineage was established) when Fury fought him. It's not like there was a mitigating factor at play, e.g. an obvious injury that inhibited his performance.

    The 'Wlad was more motivated and brave for Joshua, so it's not linear' argument is illusory bunk that fails to account for Joshua being 1. generally easier to punch in the face and look good against than Fury, 2. less technically capable of inhibiting Wlad with feints, head/upper body movement, lateral movement. Fury can conceivably powerbox Wlad, walk him down and beat him up, but it's inconceivable that Joshua could do what Fury did in Düsseldorf (if you want a good laugh, imagine him trying), and that latter entirely accounts for Wlad's comparative emboldenment at Wembley.
     
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  2. ShovelHook

    ShovelHook Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I did watch it back before unfortunately, as sloppy as some of the work was, it was evident that Fury beat Wlad almost every round. Doesn't matter what margin he won by in each round, he definitely banked em. I figure he'd have probably just shaded Wlad every round he could even if Wlad upped the pace earlier on. Fury kinda just coasted in the rounds where Wlad tried to put it on him as he knew he had it in the bag.
    Fury simply hypnotised him with his feints and caught him with too many jabs and hooks in the clinch for Wlad to claim most of those rounds.
     
  3. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Why is it weird? Is it weird to say that Pac's performance against Thurman was his best for some years? Arreola's against Ruiz? Holy's against Valuev?

    While it doesn't have to be the case that focus and motivation made up for Wlad's 17 months of ageing, I can't see how it's weird to see it as a possibility.
     
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  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    There's no doubt that Wlad wanted to beat Fury very very badly, and Wlad was an consummate professional and always prepared.
    Trainers and fighters are known to trot out excuses, or frame things after the event to explain things away. It is human nature.

    Tyson Fury and his uncle/trainer have said he was depressed, suffering from a flu-type illness, and performing at no more than 60% when he faced Wlad, so where does that factor in?

    I'd rather ignore what they "say" and use my own judgment.

    Clearly Fury's win is better than AJ's anyway.
    They both beat an old Wlad, but Fury beat him when he was champion and undefeated in years, in his own turf. AJ beat him when he was defeated, coming off a loss, and even older.
    There should be no debate.
     
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  5. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me Full Member

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    You're right about them not being equal but have the rest backwards.

    Wlad that fought AJ >>>> Wlad that fought Fury.

    One was a night he tried his best; the other he barely lifted a finger.

    The circumstances around them don't matter. His form on the night in each fight, viewed in a vacuum, does.
     
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  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Name some examples of long-reigning dominant champions like Wladimir being defeated for their titles, then losing their NEXT fight too, where the winner of that next fight is regarded as having the better win than the man who dethroned them?

    History is probably littered with champions losing their titles, then taking another fight or two and losing, then retiring.
    I've never seen it suggested that the fighters who subsequently beat them coming off that title loss had a better win than the challenger who dethroned them.
     
  7. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Only age is the factor that I think is relevant. Certainly not that he was defeated going in, that often serves as motivator. Wilder was defeated (and badly so) going into last week's fight, but I think he looked slightly improved if anything.

    That a long reigning champion can get a bit complacent and be motivated by a loss isn't strange in my book.
     
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  8. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Don't know what "long reigning" has anything to do with it, but I do think Holy's second win over Tyson was over a better version. This is more speculative, but I think the Ali-Liston rematch would also have seen a better version of Liston if held as originally scheduled. And it seems reasonable to say that Louis did better in his rematch with Walcott, even though he didn't technically lose the first. Then there's Robinson against Basilio and Fullmer. Zale against Graziano (which is probably the one that best fits that narrow criteria).

    Those from the top of my head. Oh, and Holmes-Spinks.

    EDIT: Pac also looked better in most of his fights after the Horn loss. Floyd didn't lose his title against Maidana, but definitely improved in the rematch.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    People who don't fully understand boxing might believe this.
    People who understand boxing but can't deal with the fact that Wlad was out-thought and out-boxed thoroughly by the superior Fury might believe this too.

    Wlad was old man, let's just put that out there in his defence.
    But the reason he 'barely lifted a finger' is because he never did fire off punches without getting fully set or in a superior position to his opponents. Facing an opponent who was one or two steps and moves ahead of him at all times, with superior footwork, Wlad was powerless and did not waste time hitting thin air. Age might have been a factor, of course. But he didn't get younger for AJ.

    AJ stood in front of him, and did not out-think him or out-maneouver, so Wlad could actually go to work. AJ's basic approach allowed Wlad to compete. Fury's approach completely shut down Wlad.

    This is the truth. Lots of people here will never accept it but it is true.
     
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  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    None of them fit the criteria.
    You're talking about rematches.

    I'm talking about old dethroned champions coming off the title loss taking on other opponents and losing again. In which of those subsequent losses do you give the victor more credit than the challenger who dethroned them in the previous fight?
     
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's a strange and very narrow criteria, which you just made even more narrow by adding "another opponent".

    The question is if an ageing fighter can improve after a loss and I gave you lots of examples off the top of my head. Here's another - Holy would come back after the Moorer loss and look better in several fights (despite losing fights in the interim). Hell. he'd even come back and look better after drawing and losing and drawing to Ruiz. Lewis would come back after Rahman and look better - and not just only in the rematch.

    If you don't feel this answer don't fit your very narrow criteria, then so be it. But these examples and those in the last post shows that ageing fighters have improved upon a performance quite a few times - and that's the only question I think is of any relevance. That doesn't mean that Wlad improved on his performance, or even equalled it, but if he did it would certainly not be without precedent.
     
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  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    It's not a strange and narrow criteria at all.
    History must be littered with old champions being clearly dethroned and then taking a subsequent fight and losing that one too.
    Fury beating Wlad was a huge win against a good albeit old champion.
    Fury became champ. Wlad was downgraded to an old ex-champ, coming off a loss.
    An up-and-coming AJ faced an even older Wlad coming off that loss and beat him.

    I was asking for an example of where beating the ex-champion coming off a clear loss is regarded as better than beating the champion for the title, dethroning him.

    It doesn't happen. A dominant champion being dethroned, even at age 39, is a good scalp because many challengers have failed to dethrone him.
    But his value as a scalp in his next fight, and aged 41, is reduced.
    It's obvious.
    It's simple.
    There should be no debate.
     
  13. Babality

    Babality KTFO!!!!!!! Full Member

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    Motivation matters. We see it in Fury himself. He wasn't as motivated for this third fight. His father says he wants him to fight Usyk and not Whyte because he doesn't think he would get up for Whyte. Wlad reigned for a long time, losing the title gave him motivation. Look at the way he fought Joshua, he was much less cautious. You do have to factor in the age, yes he was older, so that's a plus for Fury.
     
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  14. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There should be, because there several times where fighters have improved upon a performance at that age. It's not what you should expect, but it's not extremely rare either.

    In most cases we should view the Brewster win as clearly better than Fury's, since Wlad had gone from his late 20's and to his late 30's, which through history (and most cases still) means a significant loss of quality, but I'm not sure of even that.
     
  15. drenlou

    drenlou Tres Delinquentes Full Member

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    Another thread for the McFlurry's to circle jerk in.