Once And For All: Jack Johnson vs. Jim Jeffries

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Sep 23, 2007.


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  1. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    Nobody can take you serious, now he was even pysically easily and without a doubt stronger... :lol:
     
    Luigi1985, Sep 24, 2007
    Luigi1985, Sep 24, 2007
    #31
  2. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    On film you will rarely see Johnson throw combinations; he didn't seem to know what a jab was either. He usually threw a punch and then went into a clinch. I think quite some skilled gloved boxers from Tunney on would trouble Jeffries because of their modern style, but Johnson is not one of them. That is not to say Jeffries won't have problems with Johnson of course, but not for those reasons.
     
    ChrisPontius, Sep 24, 2007
    ChrisPontius, Sep 24, 2007
    #32
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  3. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    He actually pried Jeffries arms behind his back, not that takes strength to do, don't you think? And power and strength is the last thing to go, so you can't say that that was caused by Jeffries' lay-off.
     
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    #33
  4. Luigi1985

    Luigi1985 Cane Corso Full Member

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    Shut up, you´re probably a Johnson- hater, you´re ignorant too, he was the 2nd best combination- puncher in the history of boxing, just behind Ali...












    :lol:
     
    Luigi1985, Sep 24, 2007
    Luigi1985, Sep 24, 2007
    #34
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  5. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    Then I guess you have never seen Johnson fight. Johnson threw plenty of jabs and combinations. Even at 37, he was able to have the 6'-6" 230lb. Jess Willard on the run with his combinations. And when finishing his opponents off, he threw at time combos in double digits. Watch the Burns' fight and the Jeffries fight for that. Johnson had very fast feet and would pull back from punches with lightning speed. He wasn't just this one-dimensional clincher than many of you think he is.
     
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    #35
  6. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    Prove that I said that.
     
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    #36
  7. RoccoMarciano

    RoccoMarciano Blockbuster Full Member

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    He was talking to pontius.
     
    RoccoMarciano, Sep 24, 2007
    RoccoMarciano, Sep 24, 2007
    #37
  8. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    I know he was talking to Pontius. But he was talking about me.
     
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    #38
  9. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    I have seen just about every filmed fight of him available, and sorry but i don't see that. You focus on the few times he does throw a combination and pretend like he always does that. He doesn't. A lot of people have a mythical picture of Johnson, often posting "Johnson would keep him at the end of his jab" which is completly ridiculous and goes against every footage available of him. 90% of the time of his fights is throw a punch, grap.. wrestle... throw a few punches... wrestle more, push the midget away, and start all over again.
    Johnson was probably the best combination puncher around though*.


    *during the period when mouthpieces were not invented yet
     
    ChrisPontius, Sep 24, 2007
    ChrisPontius, Sep 24, 2007
    #39
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  10. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    Well then you should watch more carefully. He could fight whatever fight the situation called for. If it called for Holding, he would hold. If it called for combos, then he would do combos. If it called for backpeddling, then he would backpeddle. He could do it all. Jack Johnson was multi-dimensional.:good
     
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    #40
  11. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Not really, no.

    He was pretty typical of his time period--which is what made him such a handful under his own era's rules. Most of the time, as Luigi says, he would clinch and uppercut, with the occasional potshot. When he does throw combinations, he doesn't throw them with great art or fluidity, as the clip below will demonstrate (Burns vs. Johnson, as you requested):

    [yt]5qHKwJQi6aY[/yt]

    Johnson's combinative punching is best on the inside, like Jeffries. Overall, I'd say he has about the same proficiency at combinative punching as Jeffries, who could whip out a nasty head-body or body-head series of left hooks:

    [yt]QVa0GNDAP8E[/yt]



    The difference between Johnson and Jeffries lies not in how "modern" one is, but the fact that Johnson was the more technically savvy fighter by his own era's standards. Aside from using his gloves like catcher's mitts, Johnson was fairly orthodox by the transitional boxing standards of his day. Much moreso than Jeffries, who (ironically) looks more "modern" than Johnson does. Especially on the outside, Johnson had the edge in slickness and proficiency--although when you get into a discussion of inside fighting, that edge erodes quickly against Jeff.



    Incidentally, Johnson would probably frustrate and outslick most opponents under his own rules BECAUSE he was not a very modern fighter. His lack of combination punching and excessive clinching are an ADVANTAGE in turn-of-the-century conditions.
     
    cross_trainer, Sep 24, 2007
    cross_trainer, Sep 24, 2007
    #41
  12. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    Yeah, Johnson was quite strong. Used to do some strongman acts involving horses, if I recollect, and was definitely able to outmuscle Jeffries during their 1910 fight.

    But Jeffries was drained 100 lbs. and got tired after the first few rounds--which would have a HUGE impact on strength, wouldn't you think?





    For comparison, here's Jeffries swinging his 200 lb. brother around like a six year old:

    [yt]CauVMvNspIY[/yt]
     
    cross_trainer, Sep 24, 2007
    cross_trainer, Sep 24, 2007
    #42
  13. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    When I watch Johnson finishing off Burns, I see pretty good fluidity there. He defeinetely threw more punches at a time than his predecesors, IMO.
     
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    #43
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  14. C. M. Clay II

    C. M. Clay II Manassah's finest! Full Member

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    But Johnson did it in like the 4th or 5th round, he shouldn't have been tired at that point.:good
     
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    C. M. Clay II, Sep 24, 2007
    #44
  15. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Liston was good, but no "Tire Iron" Jones Full Member

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    He started to tire very early.

    In any event, he was still weight drained, which as I said before has a HUGE impact on strength. And the swinging-your-brother-like-a-kindergartener speaks for itself. :D
     
    cross_trainer, Sep 24, 2007
    cross_trainer, Sep 24, 2007
    #45
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