I think the evidence is very strong that Liston was born in or within 1 year of 1930. Here is an exchange with another member where I state my position, then he challenges me & I give him the last word. Rather than debate something I am not expert on, can you tell us if you agree or disagree with him, responding to the *specifics* of his arguments? If he was born in 1930 he could have been as young as 33 & 34 in his fights with Ali. I think this is either accurate or within a year & change. Some people age fast due to hard living, drinking etc...Others look young for their age. If he really was born around a decade or more *earlier*, there is much more time to account for. The date that my interlocutor suggests is most likely would mean he was 50 years old during his last couple of fights! About a minor point he mentioned-to me it is clear that Ali was blinded for a little while in their first fight. Meaning that he had very poor & blurry vision, that he could hardly see. I never heard any other argument, far from his claim that nobody said he was blinded. Feel free to also weigh in on this. Here is my claim & his rebuttal. I am tempted to add another comedic choice where Sonny is essentially Older than God", & any prehistoric banter is welcome, but please also provide a serious reply. What do you say about the specific arguments presented? MY CASE: No sir, most experts do not believe he was born before 1929. Anyway he would have to have been born in 1919 to have been near or at 45 when he had the first fight with Ali, which is wildly implausible. You do not know if who of the possibly many people who edited the Wikipedia entry were casuals or experts. It is a fair point that anyone can edit it: thus to be fair & discern the truth one must examine the evidence & sources cited. Of which there are many references right there. It also includes whast Sonny & his own Mother said & believed in. First, Ali absolutely *was* blinded by whatever substance Liston had. Which happened with a few of his opponents. this did not impact his physical ability to move, & you should consider that "blinded" can & does in this case mean having very partial, blurry vision. From [url]Wikipedia[/url]: Date of birth There is no official record of Liston's birth. His family's home state of Arkansas did not make birth certificates mandatory until 1965.[url][9][/url] His family, but not one Charles (or Sonny) Liston, can be found in the 1930 census, and in the 1940 census he was listed as 10 years old.[url][9][/url][url][10][/url] It has been suggested Liston himself may not have known what year he was born, as he was not precise on the matter. Liston believed his date of birth to be May 8, 1932 and used this for official purposes[url][10][/url] but by the time he won the world title an aged appearance added credence to rumors that he was actually several years older.[url][10][/url][url][11][/url][url][9][/url][url][12][/url][url][13][/url] One writer concluded that Liston's most plausible date of birth was July 22, 1930, citing census records and statements from his mother during her lifetime.[url][13][/url] NOW HIS RESPONSE: Did you read anything here what was posted previously? I already pointed that he was born in November 1919, according to his (much older) sister! Even if he was just born in 1923 (what many/ some supposed he was), when he was in 1964 in his early fourties. I don't think he knew his own mother, at least not after early childhood. Everybody agree with one, that they believe the date of birth was earlier than 1930, so therefore was marked the first day of it (as latest possible one). On Wikipeadia was it perhaps copy pasted from some articles (newspapers); have you any reference there which supports these claims? Nobody wrote about blinded until you now; you pretend he was blind, what is a difference. He was during the whole fight able to see. There was few month ago a topic about the interview of his sister in the general section: There she said, he was born in November after the big war (= first world war). If you missed that, you can possible find it on the search function.
I gotta question that & wonder if'n you should jus' stick to the chicken! Because Noah's family were the only humans on the ark correct? Meaning we are all a bunch of incredibly inbred specimens. As per my original post above, I welcome such whimsy. But also asked that you venture an actual opinion on the matter. Preferably by addressing the arguemnts that he was older, although I do not believe them Almsot all authorities seem to agree but I know some here could offer a more effective rebuttal than I can.
Sonny had a hard life. No childhood. He was doing a mans work when he was a kid and was probably as strong as a man when he was a kid. He died before he turned 40 but had been a man for 30 years.
Sonny was 200lbs at 18 in his own words when he returned to the boxing gym after being discouraged when he was younger , he sounds a lot like someone else who looks a lot older then he is... You may say Tyson had a harder run then Liston in his youth, and he could lose his beard and look in his forties now he trained less and drank, partied and did drugs just as much if not more then Liston.
I buy into the theory his name wasn’t even Charles and he used a brothers alias and was in his late thirties, perhaps forties not for logic but because I like his mystique.
Don’t like it don’t comment, it’s just an old as time (like Liston) boxing discussion that never fails to amuse me.
Liston's father is famously Frederick Douglass. Douglass, Mr President, died in 1895, so do the maths!
Huh? We discuss things here for general interest & fun. Of course facts & reality actually matter, even if many current world leaders try to gaslight us about it... But more specfically, it matters when assessing why Liston might have declined & assessing how impressive his accomplishments were. It is a big difference is he was at his peak not far from 30, or over 40!
I don't know.. This is sonny Liston we're talking about. I'll say closer to two months. Give or take a month.
This is impossible. .. According to the 1940 census the Liston boys were Leo 17, eleven-year-old Curtis and two-year-old Wesley, “Charles L” appears on record for the first time aged ten. 1925 does not work. Sonny cannot have been Leo who was born in 1913. So He is either Curtis or Charles. Sonny can only be Charles. He said he “got together with Curtis and J.T sometimes” so there cannot be a mixup of identity since Curtis would knowingly have had to have been Charles at some point. here is Sonny talking about his siblings... "E. B. Ward, he's the oldest, a boy child almost 40 years old now. It's been a good while since I seen him. Next comes J. T. I always call him Shorty, and he's close behind E. B. After J. T. there's Leo and then my sisters Clarety, Annie and Alcora, Curtice, me and Wesley. Annie and me was closest, and I see a lot of her. She always kids me because I was bigger than her, yet she would rock me to sleep. Curtice and J. T. get together with me sometimes, and I saw Wesley, the baby, in '58 or '59, but the others have wandered off someplace." - Sonny Liston. By Gilbert Rogan SI
Johnny B., you often write very brief statements, & unusually, use multiple posts though use very few words on the same subject. But I keep asking for specific evidence. For people to affirm or oppose the details supplied in my original thread starter post. Just stating a premise absent any evidence is useless. It then could be just as valid to say he died at 30 as 50. Why not 95? It is all just opinion without any validity established if you just cite a number & refer to no evidence whatsoever. Let alone address claims systematically. Please present &/or weigh evidence presented above.
