One of the most replaceable HW champs? Sonny Liston?

I did understand the OP, just dont think you agree with my response, All good. AND TBH I dont agree with this either, at ALL. Monzon fighting so so guys, certaintly not Valdez and Griffith unless they are in the so so category for you. Also Monzon fought plenty big middles as well. But yes Monzon was a 2 pack a day cig smoker and accomplished what he did partly by being a gym rat ( road work, jumping rope, bag work, AND beating the **** outta of the vast number of sparring partners he went through as he kicked like a mule ). So NO , the list for other middles to do what Monzon did would be even shorter, maybe even zero because NO ONE was mentally tougher than Carlos. so now you are 0 for 2 including the Monzon hogwash.. also being that I rate Monzon even more so a H2H nightmare than Liston. He would be top 3 all time at middle, maybe even the GOAT, Hope I didnt derail your thread but you brought up Monzon, all good a cheers to you anyway

 

I was just using Monzon as an example of discipline despite his lifestyle, not sure where you got me knocking “The King” from brother and Griffith is my favourite boxer some days of the week - FAR from so so (it’s at least 1-1) no hogwash I love that fighter, Liston for a “great” sucked but that’s another can of worms and not relevant to the thread.

 

Thanks for the compliment. And likewise.

As to your current post: I basically agree with a lot of what you're saying. I also think pointing out the exceptional guys is the right path to take. Let me see if I can interact with that a bit, and apply it to the thread question:

Let's take @NoNeck's choice of Ortiz against Williams, Folley, Machen, and Patterson.

First, just a simple acknowledgement: ALL of these guys are ridiculous levels above most boxers. They're already extreme outliers compared to the general population of boxers. I say this just to be fair to all of the combatants, so I don't give the impression that I'm denigrating any fighters as nobodies or something. We're not winnowing wheat from chaff. We're talking about the difference between the outliers-among-outliers and the merely amazing.

That said: Folley, Machen, and Williams aren't really in a different bracket than Ortiz. They're not champions, or generational talents. So although I don't think we should just compare pounds and inches, I do think that the huge, skilled, southpaw puncher on roids has a case that he has some significant advantages here.

Now, with Floyd, it's more complicated.

I'll lay one of my own cognitive biases on the table: Floyd is great to watch. Even to a DKSAB person like me, the guy's style is just so beautiful on film. And so I might be inclined, if anything, to overrate him. I was going to begin this post by saying he's one of the true P4P greats to fight at heavyweight, a la Spinks. But the more I thought about the time when Floyd held the title, who he defended against, and his results, I'm not so sure. His championship reign wasn't great. His post-championship career was basically as very good contender.

But I'll give Floyd the benefit of the doubt, and assume for the sake of this post that Floyd was a true outlier. A once in a quarter century talent like Ali, or Louis, or (for cruiserweights who formally fought in that division) Usyk or Holyfield.

What was Floyd an outlier from, though? IMO, if anything, he was an outlier lightheavyweight. That's very consistent with the way Floyd just-barely-managed to hold down the heavyweight title until Liston, in a division that was transitioning from smaller to slightly bigger guys. LHW is also the division Floyd himself started in. And it's consistent with both Floyd blitzing Moore (a great LHW) for the heavyweight title, but also how Floyd hit a wall against Liston and Ali. [Depending on how much weight to put on Floyd's back problem.] Ali was a generational talent at cruiser/small heavyweight; Liston wasn't, but he was still better than the average heavyweight champ who came before him. Floyd's results are what we'd expect if a smaller outlier collided with really good [Liston], or truly exceptional [Ali], guys a weightclass above him. And after losing the title, Floyd was stretching the end of his cable to compete with the 60s cruiserweights.

That doesn't mean that I think Ortiz automatically slaughters Floyd. I'd be at least a little leery that Floyd could pull off what you predicted, just because Floyd was a phenomenal fighter. But I'd bet on Ortiz. He's way bigger than Floyd, he's chemically assisted, he's also really good, and he's coming from an era where the smallest successful outlier -- Usyk -- is at least a weightclass bigger than Floyd.

My answer would be different if we were talking about Ali versus the modern guys. Ali truly was special; at least a once in a quarter century (big-ish) cruiserweight-sized guy. He stood out from his 60s and 70s peers, and would've done so more if not for the Parkinsons. That's enough to argue Ali might fall into Usyk territory. But the thread is asking about Liston's pre-Ali opposition, so that's what I'm commenting on.

 

What drags Floyd down the most is his dodgy record with taking punches I reckon. You don't have to make much of a case for the likes of Tyson or Tua who were granite, but Patterson didn't really have that true heavyweight chin that would carry him through the following decades reliably. Ruiz is a modern short (his height is extremely stretched for marketing purpose) fighter who pretty much drew with Parker and in-shape (relatively speaking) upset Joshua, but he has that chin to spare, as did say Mercer who was barely any taller than Patterson, if more comfortably bulky. That being said, his fights are a good representation of what a shortie with immense handspeed could do to his opponent. Take it on the glove or slip and absolutely unload.

 

The first name that sprung to mind honestly , was Mr Wilder.
He's got that punch and proved against Fury he can dog fight.
He'd have a decent chance against Williams and co.

 

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For the record that's how Machen would look next to an Ali sized heavy.

 

This is the problem. That invalidates his amazing career. You're pretending he was an ok fighter who went nuts once. Thats just not true. Its a lie. A lie I tell you.

 

Why do you think Liston beat Patterson and Ortiz wouldn’t? It’s not meant to sound stupid, I actually am just curious and it’d help me understand your take.

 

Because the highlight of Ortiz's career was probably beating the bang average Jennings after he managed to go the distance with a 39-year old Klitschko. The bang average Jennings who in my book would get destroyed by Sonny the way he walked forward with that high-guard. A knockout waiting to happen really, and Ortiz was the first to get him.

Still, Ortiz would get found extremely fast in the current era with Arab money fueling tough matches. When judged on a more all-time sale of boxing, he was chinny, slow-footed, hittable, and mediocre on the front-foot (more so than Zhang who is in many, many aspects a much superior representation of a similar style to Ortiz, and who would demolish Wilder twice back in 2018 and 2019 when Luis let his one big chance slip) and while clearly a thinking fighter with somewhat strong amateur background, he was prone to overthinking (even if it lead to some beautiful counters), couldn't press the action that well when needed and definitely not against another puncher with elite skillset, and while I don't typically chastise hands-low approach, it would really be a scary idea against Patterson. Floyd is not decimating him, and he absolutely can drop the fight (boxing is not a game of statistics, but a living, sprawling beast), but there were numerous pitfalls and patters he could exploit against Luis, and with his two-fisted power, accuracy, handspeed, and combinations, he is not letting him off the hook.

Sonny Liston demolished Patterson (who is both better defensively and much more compact target than Ortiz's opposition like Jennings and Wilder) because he was a league more accurate than the Cuban, despite the aura of the island surrounding him, with their golden medals, and their amateur pedigree. Not to mention against targets more nimble and elusive than the ones Ortiz looked unimpressive against (Wilder against whom Fury was leagues more effective despite not being anything close to a front-foot fighter, Jennings at times.) Liston was present-minded, imposing, aided by an ATG jab, and in another realm as a finisher—when given the initiative he would throw those purposeful, cleverly adjusted combinations crashing with power, most of the shots, no slapping and fluff.

And yes J, I think Ortiz gasses and drops a decision against Eddie Machen. He would be one of the top contenders, but he would not be Sonny Liston.

 

Okay another angle, I’ll return to this post but your stance is you think that (bang on below average) Ingo did something Ortiz is likely not capable of? Why the Swede and not the Cuban?

 

Machen seemed to pick the wrong approach for Johansson, though on another note, Ingo could really be accurate with that right hand and the left hook both. Good timing. Could see it in his eyes how he seizes them up. Clearly didn't have that much in other departments though. Ortiz's own left hand and lead hook could be crackers, but the things I disliked about him stand, even though I am a fan of all Cubans—on the front foot, he looked somewhat lacking against targets that were much larger, and infinitely more hittable than some of the 50's cruiser guys. I would be much more comfortable picking Luis in those instances if he had solid inside game, or a far more proven chin and gas tank, but he really doesn't. He will always remained that skilled, but logistically impaired glass cannon I reckon.

Ortiz absolutely can lull and find Machen, Folley, or Patterson. When I say I think X would win over Y, there is always the *(at least 6/10 times)* hidden clause, because there is rarely a man who would beat another ten out of ten times in boxing, if they are on the level. Ortiz despite suffering from clear flaws much akin to Zhang, has his own dangerous attributes and given the shallow talent pool of the Liston era, he would definitely find his spot, especially since losses were a tad more forgiven back then with the increased activity and all.

 

I don't think you've really watched Ortiz, and definitely not in his prime. He had great inside game and would destroy small guys with uppercuts. The comparison to Zhang is absurd if we're talking about stamina and inside game.

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@Rollin i think this is your man if you want debate about Ortiz, Noneck would know his career well and I’d be interested in what you’d have to say to NN and see the sort of debate that might unfold, I will get back to you eventually but I think we disagree jawlines, rats and wrestling aside I don’t think Patterson can overcome someone that overall overwhelming for such a little not sturdy fighter.

 

I'm pretty open minded here. Half a year later I might be favoring Ortiz.

 

Just watch the video and apologize for pretending that Ortiz didn't have inside game.