One Punch Knockout or Gradual Beatdown?

I see you have "diluted it from," good large fighters" to just" large fighters". Sensible move.
As champion the heaviest man Marciano faced was the tubby 205lbs C*ckell who was even shorter than Rocky, ****ell was a former light heavyweight whose bout of glandular fever left him with an uncontrollable weight problem

.Marciano never faced another challenger of 200lbs or over.
In three of his five defences he was the heavier man. His four signature wins prior to winning the title were over a 193lbs Layne who was carrying surplus around his belly, an ancient 213lbs Joe Louis, 179lbs Harry Mathews
and, Roland Lastarza [first fight] 187lbs, a split decision win that many called a robbery.

Here are the heights of Marciano's last 16 opponents
Walcott x2 6'0"
Charles x2 6'0"
Moore 5'11"
Co*kell 5'10"
Lastarza 6'0"
Mathews 5'11"
Louis 6'1.5"
Reynolds 6' .05"
Buonvino 6'.05"
Savold 6'1"
Beshore 5'9"
Layne 6'1"

Care to name these large fighters Marciano ko'd?

 

He was still a good fighter but by his own admission he hadn't been the Brown Bomber since the Mauriello fight, 5 years earlier. Louis said that had he been at his best he would have expected to take Charles out in about 6 rounds.:think

 

Yeah.
The rise of television made a huge difference too. Just like almost every other form of live entertainment, the boxing circuit shrank.

 

I agree, Marciano was not just a one punch Hail Mary fighter he did grind you down but he had the one punch power from round 1-15 and if it landed right you were done.

In the case of Rex Layne my point is Rex was on a roll he was 34-1-2 and had Ko'd the man that beat and drew with him, Rex had just been victorious in a war against Bob Satterfeild and Ko'd Dave Whitlock..Nat Fleischer was calling him the next Dempsey and then he gets hit with a 6 inch punch that looked like a tap and he goes down and out....There have been cases like Tate against Weaver and Bobick against Norton and Hope against Benitez that ruined fighter and its not always the case of just one punch there is usually pain leading up to it. Layne got stopped in his next fight by Charles and it may have also been the case of quality edge of Ezz but that little edge of confidence lost or found can sometimes make a big difference.

By the way everyone was picking Lacy vs Calzage but that fight was a complete beating topped off by a beaut of a KD, Joe Calzage just wanted to put the icing on the cake and silence all the fans who were calling him a slapper with brittle hands, Joe could sit down on his punches when he chose to and slap the s--t out of people when it suited him to do so ....and yes that fight ruined Left Hook Lacy

 

Marciano landed plenty of big shots on Layne in the early rounds, shots as big as the one that finally ko'd him but Layne was fresh and absorbed them. Rocky gradually broke Layne down,same as he did Moore, C*ckell, Lastarza, and Charles second fight. Layne's record against big punchers ,even decent punchers is not very good is it?
I picked Calzaghe who was a good puncher before hand problems..
Dave Whitlock who he?
Ever heard of Willis Applegate?

 

I know the boxrec Wall/Layne result is damning but lets do a little research and not be lazy casuals.

The first Layne/Walls fight was postponed only a week because Layne was bed ridden with the flu.

[url]https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=336&dat=19530617&id=wJxaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uE0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3663,3006186&hl=en[/url]

How many of you feel you would be ready for a prize fight with a heavy puncher after just a week recovery from the flu virus? He was than rushed into a rematch less than two months later. How many fighters return from a knockout loss in less than two months to reverse the result?

Walls was the only man other than Marciano to put Layne down for the count.

 

Aaah Dangerous Dave Whitlock, the light heavyweight who had been ko'd in his previous fight by thunderous punching Joey Maxim! The Whitlock who had lost all his last 5 fights 3 by stoppage The Dave Whitlock that Harry Kid Mathews ko'd twice in a total of 8 rds!
The Dave Whitlock who was stopped 9 times .
The Dave Whitlock that fought Layne 4 times, winning one and going the distance in two others, yet was stopped several times by light heavies although Layne the" New Dempsey " only stopped him once in 4 tries ? Layne was a decent puncher but nothing special, rather slow of hand and foot with poor defence and a bit of a stamina problem exacerbated by poor conditioning. He was definitely not the New Dempsey and for that matter neither was Rocky and Fleischer emphatically said he wasn't in a Ring article featuring Marciano, which I still have.

 

You don't think the average punching Charles would have done so if Laynes cornermen had not rescued him by dragging him back to his corner?

"Layne was saved by the bell at the count of nine in the 10th round and "was bleeding from the nose, mouth and a deep gash at the corner of his left eye when his handlers picked him up and carried him to his corner". The bout was stopped with him "helpless" after regaining his feet following another knockdown in the 11th round. (New York Times"

 

Layne's only other stoppage losses was bad beating from Ezzard Charles in his very first return fight from the Marciano KO and twice by Jackson while on the decline. Here it is described that a poorly conditioned Layne collapsed from exhaustion without being hit hard. And the rematch was a cut stoppage.


[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=D1QEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=rex+layne+tommy+jackson&source=bl&ots=gAA6hsOz7S&sig=olvR7YamEjY-mo9gnJwG-bHDaPo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9t0rVbPrOcOwggSekYPoBg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=rex%20layne%20tommy%20jackson&f=false[/url]


Layne lasted the distance in 11 losses. His 6 stoppage losses were to the same 4 men. He had not been stopped prior to Marciano.

Despite having a very poor defense, Layne lasted the distance or defeated some good punchers in Thompson, Satterfield, Walcott, Charles, and Bob Baker.

 

I would not describe Charles as average punching, especially against an exhausted easy target. As we know from articles when you challenged me on the subject, Charles did the same to one of the divison's more durable fighters in Baksi for his only career stoppage loss.

 

McVey has tried to discredit Marciano in other thread. Your response was as spot on as a the KO.

By the way Layne was 34-1-2 at the time. In his prime and a slight betting favorite to defeat Marciano. A 6th round KO is not a long fight.

 

Would you put Charles in the top echelon as a heavyweight puncher ? Would you put him in the bottom echelon?

Or would you put him in the middle echelon?
Charles floored Layne three times in their 53 fight.
Charles couldn't floor a comebacking Louis whose chin was never that great. Conceding 15lbs Harry Mathews floored Layne. I stand by my statement and think you are clutching at straws with yours.

 

Above average. A very good puncher and finisher, proven to be quite dangerous to the HWs of his era.

After World War II, Louis was only flooed by two men and stopped by one. Walcott and Marciano.

I've only stated facts. What you are doing could be described as straw clutching.

 

In all fairness to Marciano he did beat big men but once he moved up in class and took a title the # 1 contenders had picked off most of the Big guys and earned their places as the best men to fight for the title

6' Walcott Beat
6"4 Hein Ten Hoff
6"3 Ollie Tanberg
6"4 Johnny Shkor (more of an opponent that Marciano Ko'd as well)

6"Charles beat
6"4 Johnny Haynes
6"2.5 Coley Wallace
6'2 Billy Gilliam (who just beat Valdes)
6"2.5 Cesar Brion

5"11 Moore beat

6"3 Nino Valdes 2X
6"2 Bob Baker KO 8
6"4 Leonard Dugan
6'2 Embrell Davis

5'11 CoKKel

6"2 Johnny Arthur
6'1 Uber Bacilieri
6"1 Tommy Farr

6"
LaStarza

6"2.5 Dan Bucdceroni

5"10 Harold Johnson (who lost to Moore) beat

6"3 Nino Valdes
6"2 Billy Gilliam
6"2.5 Coley Wallace
6"3 Paul Andrews

6" 1/2 Bernie Reynolds
Ko'd 6"3 James Parker (who drew with Earl Walls and 7'2 Ewart Potgieter 0

5'10 Bob Satterfield who was Ko'd by Charles

Ko'd 6'3 Big Cat Williams in 3
KO'd 6'2 Bob Baker in 1
Dominated and dropped 6'3 Nino Valdes in 1955 fight

so in fairness to Marciano, once he was champ he beat the men who beat the bigger men, they happened to be smaller but better and 5 were # 1 contenders

 

Charles against other heavyweight champions as a puncher in my judgment--to 1970--

Charles is a better puncher than

Corbett
Hart
Burns
Sharkey
Carnera
Braddock
Terrell
Ellis

Charles is not as good a puncher as

Fitz,
Jeffries,
Dempsey,
Schmeling,
Baer,
Louis,
Marciano,
Johansson,
Liston,
Ali

Charles can be viewed as an equal or better puncher--

Johnson--hard to judge him, as he preferred to box. I would tend to view him as about equal to Charles. He stopped Jeff, but what that meant in 1910 is difficult to gauge.

Willard--Jess was big, but hard to judge what kind of puncher he was--his KO of Johnson was in a finish fight. I think Charles was by far the more consistent puncher.

Tunney--Charles stopped more big men than Gene by far. I personally would rate him the better puncher.

Walcott--I see them about equal as punchers.

Patterson--I also see him about equal to Charles as a puncher.

bottom line--I would rate him about in the middle of the heavyweight champions from the 1890's through the 1960's as a puncher,

but well above the mid-point as an overall fighter.