Orlando Canizales v Veeraphol Sahaprom

As stated previously - my opinion is base primarily on the eye, while the difference in their respective ledgers is minimal. Although, I'd still say Canizales carries the better pedigree.

I'm pretty sure I haven't referred to Seabrooks as an "elite" fighter but, after an early career of taking short-notice bouts on the road, he'd turned a corner by '86 and was given The Ring magazine Progress of the Year award in '87. I think you have mischaracterized the Seabrooks/Jacob bout and, despite this, it's Seabrooks, who got the stoppage win.

In any event, he was on very good form at the time he and Canizales faced off, in '88.


6 of Sahaprom's 16 title fights were against two men - Tatsuyoshi and Nishioka

You seem to rate Tatsuyoshi very highly indeed, given he was more than lucky to get the controversial TD win over Ayala, with him less than keen to offer a rematch. Also, after you referring to an "incredibly green" Thierry Jacob, as a way of deflating Seabrooks, your reference to Singwacha, who was 16-0, as a credit for Tatsuyoshi, is noteworthy. (Yes, Iamthuam was a 118lb titlist, but he was also 20 years old and well below his optimum fighting weight).

I've seen both the Sahaprom/Tatsuyoshi bouts and can't see why anyone would rate either of them so highly. Tatsuyoshi showed a jab and that's about it. He barely used the right hand, giving Sahaprom little to nothing to think about. You might consider these performances as a demonstration of Tatsuyoshi being better than Seabrooks, but I can't say I that I'd agree.

Sahaprom demonstrated good, solid punching and finishing to get the job done but, from where I was sitting, there was little in the way of a challenge in front of him. I think the same about Nishioka, who Sahaprom couldn't clearly separate himself from, in four rather uninspiring bouts.


You might see a "sublimely" skilled fighter in Sahaprom. Alas, I do not.

You mention his head movement and yet he is hardly elusive and is consistently found by jabs, while leaning right in with his own. I haven't seen his feints do much to lure his rather one-paced opposition into any kind of traps, but I'd be glad to look at any examples you have of him capitalizing on this aspect of his repertoire.

His footwork was functional but, in my opinion, his movement in general was exaggerated, often leading him to overreach and/or find himself out of position - but, regardless of my opinion, in what way was Sahaprom's footwork more effective than Canizales', who actively used rapid, in the pocket lateral movement to create positions, from which to launch his offensives?

If you can't see how Canizales could put a wider array of punches together then we are seeing things very differently. Canizales had both a complete head and body attack (and counter-attack) and he was almost impossible to get away from.

And, at what stage in the Hardy (I) fight did Canizales look deterred? The rematch puts paid to any idea that Canizales was having anything other than an off night in the first bout, while Hardy was giving his best ever performance.

All-in-all, I favor Canizales (obviously). But, each to their own.

 

I’m a bigger Canizales fan, but I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Sahaprom did better with what he had, and I’d agree with Man Machine and Xplosive that he had less than Canizales. Orlando underachieved relative to his skill level, which I think George underrates. I think he was just as skilled as someone like Wilfredo Gomez. What he lacked was the one mean bone in his body needed to push him over the edge so that he wouldn’t struggle with a Billy Hardy type when he wasn’t in prime condition.

 

okay, I think I definitely may underrate Canizales' skill if yous see it as that level. Not saying he was a bad fighter by any means, just not a level above Sahaprom. One thing I definitely can't see, is Canizales being rated higher than Sahaprom for what he achieved. It's clear that Sahaprom beat much better fighters, reigned for longer and won the title back after a bad loss in his fifth fight.

 

I'll take back the 'level above' aspect of my previous comments, but still say I rate Canizales higher . At times, he showed a brilliance I just never saw in Sahaprom. But, that's just me.

 

On another note, did RAG fool you guys or something? For my money, Canizales was clearly the bigger puncher. He had excellent power. Excellent technical finishing ability, too. Just not the right motor or temperament.

 

No issue there. Sahaprom may well deserve a higher ranking.

 

And, another thing... ...Gil Clancy compared Canizales with Roberto Duran...

...Just sayin' **Whistles


Happy New Year - All!!

 

I'm sure Gil preferred Sahaprom. He destroyed southpaws.

 

I personally feel theres like a mid elite tier at bantamweight before the elite elites, and on that mid tier I would place Jeff Chandler, Lupe Pintor, and Happy Lora. I feel Chandler, Pintor, and Lora were a good deal better than Canizales and Sahaprom.

Then, above them, the elite elites are obviously Jofre, Olivares, Zarate, Harada, Rose, ect.

 

They were both Latin.

That's where the similarities end.

 

I dont see much of a separation in power between them at all.

Both were good punchers, but neither was an Olivares/Jofre level puncher.

I think Sahaprom had heavier hands, while Canizales hit with more velocity. Thats the best way I can explain it.

 

Fair enough. I’d have all those middle guys you mentioned pretty much on a par. Rose on the same level, truthfully.

 

Yeah, I suppose Rose might be mid tier, though if he is, I think he's the best of the mid tier guys.

I put a guy like Jorge Lujan on the same tier with Canizales and Sahaprom.

Lujan's destruction of Zamora was more impressive than anything Canizales or Sahaprom did.

And Lujan beat Davila, im not even sure if Canizales/Sahaprom beat Davila.

 

Regarding the Canizales/Gomez comparison you made - I can see how skills are comparable, but Gomez was far far far more talented, which is different than skill.

I consider Gomez one of the top 10 talents in boxing history.

Canizales had a lot of talent himself, but not the generational type talent Bazooka had.

So you add Gomez's far superior talent to the fact that he had way more intangibles (more heart, more meanness) and thats why Gomez was a different level.

If anything, Lora was closer to Gomez's talent level than Canizales was.

 

Gomez was a bit more physically talented than Canizales, but not by much. He was a bigger puncher. That’s about the only disparity apart from their respective mentalities. I’d actually give Canizales the edge in hand speed and possibly chin.

If mentality is a part of talent, which I actually do believe, then the gap widens quite a bit in favor of Gomez. The difference between the two in that regard is bigger than the difference anywhere else combined. And I don’t think Canizales lacked heart or anything like that. He just struck me as a guy who liked boxing mainly from a friendly sporting perspective. Gomez took genuine pleasure in hurting and humiliating his opponent.

Parallel worlds between their intentions. For two similar fighters, it made a massive difference.