Orlando Canizales?

Addie · Nov 19, 2009

Sweet Pea said: ↑

One of my favorites. He made great use of angles and footwork. He'd make a step to the right and turn his body off a feint to put his opponent off balance and attack with a variety of counters. He was a blistering, but very calculated combination puncher. When on the offensive, he'd vary his attack up from head to body seamlessly, throwing some of the most concise hooks and uppercuts you'll ever see. He also had excellent instinctive reflexes when on the attack, kind of like a Jung-Koo Chang. Not a great defensive fighter, but when he was on he was able to slip and roll punches beautifully, putting him in perfect positions to counter off his opponent's mistakes.

That's another thing about him, he was one of the most offensively aware fighters I've seen at the lower weights. You mentioned his punch placement, which is indeed one of his best traits. Whatever the opponent presented to hit, Orlando hit it. Extremely accurate and smooth when he got his opponent hurt. Just a wonderfully well-schooled fighter.

His only flaw really was a tendancy to coast at certain points during fights he was controlling. When he lands his hands go he was the master, but when he didn't he'd allow opponents to work their way into a fight. I think this could cost him against some of the bigger punchers and/or the better out-boxers and slick stylists.

As to where he'd rank at Bantamweight, it depends on how you're ranking him. He missed out on some of the biggest fights that could've been made, but never faltered against the opposition he was facing. He blitzed Hardy in the rematch after the first fight where he was off form and run very close. I'd say based on ability he's definitely one of the best I've ever seen, but we can't know for sure how he'd have fared against the truly elite in the division because he never really faced that caliber of fighter. The small weaknesses that he did have could've been blown up a bit. Either way he looked as impressive as he could've against the competition he faced, though he had a short prime.

He'd probably be borderline top 10 for me, despite all the greats to have fought in the division. He impressed me that much as a fighter.
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Thanks for that, Pea.

Why weren't the big fights made at Bantamweight during his reign? What other outstanding fighters were in and around his division at the time?

I know there was a few whispers of Barrera perhaps fighting Canizales as he had just won the WBO title at 122lbs. How do you think that would have turned out, I knew he fell short against Jones, in a very close fight. Jones of course, destroying Barrera in 97. When I watch Canizales, he reminds me a lot of Marco in a few instances. They both were great combination punchers, throwing every punch in the book, with Marco having the edge in handspeed, and Orlando clearly being the heavier puncher.

Flea Man · Nov 19, 2009

I don't ACTUALLY have a list of top 'near to complete Bantams' but there are many great fighters from that division. So many that whenever you make a lost you go '**** I forgot about.....' but I never forget Canizales. Top fighter.

Flea Man · Nov 19, 2009

Addie, I strongly suggest you watch Galaxy-Moon 1 and then, a fantastic display in the 2nd fight between the two, both available in their entirety on the tube (if I'm not mistaken, uploaded by WayneBedfre legend)

Addie · Nov 19, 2009

fleaman said: ↑

Addie, I strongly suggest you watch Galaxy-Moon 1 and then, a fantastic display in the 2nd fight between the two, both available in their entirety on the tube (if I'm not mistaken, uploaded by WayneBedfre legend)
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I've actually seen the first Moon fight, and nothing about Galaxy impressed me too much. Am I mistaken, but that's the fight that Moon wins after a cut which causes the premature stoppage? I also have Galaxy vs Jae-Sok Park on my computer in good quality but I've not gotten round to watching it yet.

We seem to putting a lot of emphasis on Canizales' poor title defenses, but were they any less impressive than Lopez's defenses or Carbajal's defenses ouside of Gonzalez? There just doesn't seem to be that much depth in the lower weights as of late.

Addie · Nov 19, 2009

teeto said: ↑

Okay i've just found my post from ages ago, it only touches on this fight a bit, but here it is. I've done my homework on these bantams a lot since i posted this so i could very well differ in opinion now, but here:

In my opinion Zarate would beat Canizales in a very close fight where we all feel we saw a great effort by the losing combatant. McGrain nailed it for me, Canizales more organised, Zarate more nasty.

I would also pick Zarate over Rose, Rose could possibly look better for a while against Zarate than he did against Olivares, in fact i'm sure he would, but Zarate is always coming for him in my opinion, when the man starts to stamp his trademark all over the fight he will earn his w on the record in my opinion.

Panama Al Brown is a man that might be able to get a decision, by not co-operating in any war, and countering. But i must say i think Zarate can earn points here also, his own accurate shots can find the mark and well power means something as well. No man ever kept shy of a bantamweight Carlos Zarate so i don't know. This is one where i sit on the fence, but fall off in Zarate's territory.

I think Zarate might outpoint Manuel Ortiz in a war of attrition, but i can't make much of an assumption based on the not extensive footage i have seen, but the same applies for Brown.

Harada, this is harder for me to say than others seem to have it. Harada was a dynamo, he could do the Gavin Rees title winning gameplan to perfection (haha, or lets say Manny Pacquiao), meaning the way he performed against Jofre and Rudkin. Simply lets his hands go and they are faster than fast. I can actually see him winning, but i can see both men winning. Jofre hurt Harada though and Zarate is accurate in his own right, plus more powerful, dare i say he could stop Harada? I might have to pick Harada on points here because i haven't picked a man against him yet. By the way, Masahiko Harada could box, his jab was not a non-existent tool in his arsenal, and he could move also, though for me his greatest way of winnig against the best is as i stated above.

I take Zarate to beat McGovern in a heavy ammunition trade-off.

Now for Jofre, i would pick Jofre because i think he is accurate as can be with his long-range power shots, he can bolo, he can do a sort of inverted or upside down bolo with devastating effect. More to the point, and in more simple terms, he is durable and does the scoring.

Zarate-Olivares is a toss up for me but i'm leaning towards Olivares, only because i think that due to the styles and techniques employed in the actual throwing of punches, Olivares can land plenty. But a toss-up in my opinion as the same maybe can be said vice versa, as Zarate would land on anyone.
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You seem to rate Carlos Zarate very highly at Bantamweight in a H2H sense, but what separates Zarate's title defenses from Canizales'? What outstanding fighters was Carlos able to beat? I know Zamora was sporting a stupendous record until he was defeated by Zarate and then seemed to fall off the radar.

Flea Man · Nov 19, 2009

Addie said: ↑

I've actually seen the first Moon fight, and nothing about Galaxy impressed me too much. Am I mistaken, but that's the fight that Moon wins after a cut which causes the premature stoppage? I also have Galaxy vs Jae-Sok Park on my computer in good quality but I've not gotten round to watching it yet.

We seem to putting a lot of emphasis on Canizales' poor title defenses, but were they any less impressive than Lopez's defenses or Carbajal's defenses ouside of Gonzalez? There just doesn't seem to be that much depth in the lower weights as of late.
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That's EXACTLY what I hoped you'd say. Now watch the sequel :deal

teeto · Nov 19, 2009

Addie said: ↑

You seem to rate Carlos Zarate very highly at Bantamweight in a H2H sense, but what separates Zarate's title defenses from Canizales'? What outstanding fighters was Carlos able to beat? I know Zamora was sporting a stupendous record until he was defeated by Zarate and then seemed to fall off the radar.
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That's exactly it. That was what i was getting at saying you can compare their careers a whole lot. You're also on the money in that i rate him head to head and that's where it comes from really, exclusively. Like i said in the post i made on page 1 here though, about Pintor, i have no reservatios anymore when it comes to Zarate-Canizales, could go either way.

Flea Man · Nov 19, 2009

Addie said: ↑

You seem to rate Carlos Zarate very highly at Bantamweight in a H2H sense, but what separates Zarate's title defenses from Canizales'? What outstanding fighters was Carlos able to beat? I know Zamora was sporting a stupendous record until he was defeated by Zarate and then seemed to fall off the radar.
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The Rodolfo Martinez title-winning fight (which I have) is very good even though Zarate gets briefly wobbled. Also, deserved the win over a very, very formidable presence in Lupe Pintor. Although the fight is a stinker.

Flea Man · Nov 19, 2009

Pintor-Canizales would be an amazing fight, both tidy box-punchers, Canizales more varied, Pintor the harder hitter and more vicious fighter (in the ring anyway) IMO. Got an early fight of Pintors where he stops some redhaired guy in the 2nd round (I think) his precision one-twos and the power he generated made me laugh at loud. Beast.

Addie · Nov 19, 2009

teeto said: ↑

That's exactly it. That was what i was getting at saying you can compare their careers a whole lot. You're also on the money in that i rate him head to head and that's where it comes from really, exclusively. Like i said in the post i made on page 1 here though, about Pintor, i have no reservatios anymore when it comes to Zarate-Canizales, could go either way.
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That's a strange fight. I hear conflicting stories. One person will say Zarate was clearly robbed, and he himself believed it...it caused him to quit Boxing altogether. Then I'll see another article which claims it's a close fight and could have gone either way. I need to sit down and watch it in it's entirety and draw my own conclusions I guess. Personally, I think we should put more emphasis on consistency and title defenses for the Super Flyweights and Bantamweights. You usually only get the 1 or 2 outstanding fighters in the division in each era, we can't hold that against Zarate and co. Maybe he would have won a title at 122lbs had he not had to face the best the division has ever seen.

In today's climate, would it possible for Zarate to win titles all the way up to Featherweight in your estimation? He seemed to be a pretty huge Bantamweight, and his power was that emphatic, perhaps he could have carried it? This is all just speculation, I'm asking someone who knows more about him than I do.

Sweet Pea · Nov 19, 2009

Rose would've definitely fared better against Zarate than against Olivares, provided he wasn't so badly weight-weakened. Olivares put on a great performance that night, but he wasn't fighting the best Rose by a long shot. I still think he'd have beaten him based on that performance and his aggressive, attacking style, though.

teeto · Nov 19, 2009

Addie said: ↑

That's a strange fight. I hear conflicting stories. One person will say Zarate was clearly robbed, and he himself believed it...it caused him to quit Boxing altogether. Then I'll see another article which claims it's a close fight and could have gone either way. I need to sit down and watch it in it's entirety and draw my own conclusions I guess. Personally, I think we should put more emphasis on consistency and title defenses for the Super Flyweights and Bantamweights. You usually only get the 1 or 2 outstanding fighters in the division in each era, we can't hold that against Zarate and co. Maybe he would have won a title at 122lbs had he not had to face the best the division has ever seen.

In today's climate, would it possible for Zarate to win titles all the way up to Featherweight in your estimation? He seemed to be a pretty huge Bantamweight, and his power was that emphatic, perhaps he could have carried it? This is all just speculation, I'm asking someone who knows more about him than I do.
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I don't reckon he would have done too well moving up to be honest. That power is that power and it's a huge asset. But someone like Morales would bet him for me, the puncher's chance is a constant though.

THAT fight, Pintor-Zarate is a serious contender for hardest to score ever. Don't watch it unless you're up for the challenge.

Flea Man · Nov 19, 2009

Welll Zarate, the lighter guy, needed 4 attempts to make 122 against Gomez. Looked like ****, but then again, was in against Gomez. Not sure if I'm completely correct but I THINK it's against Davila....Gomez in that fight may be the best fighter Ive ever seen unbelievable transitions between boxing and all-out attack, post Sanchez he was more of a flat out seek and destroy man.

So, Im not sure whether Zarate would be suited to the higher weights. It was his physical gifts that made him such a force at 118 IMO, his long arms and legs allowed him to get torque into those hooks and uppercuts on the smaller opponent.

Addie · Nov 19, 2009

teeto said: ↑

I don't reckon he would have done too well moving up to be honest. That power is that power and it's a huge asset. But someone like Morales would bet him for me, the puncher's chance is a constant though.

THAT fight, Pintor-Zarate is a serious contender for hardest to score ever. Don't watch it unless you're up for the challenge.
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Well, I always thinking more like today. He'd have Juan Manuel Lopez to contend with, and I would expect Zarate to win that fight emphatically based on what I've seen from both fighters. At Featherweight, which is really weak at the moment, he'd have to beat a Chris John or Luevano. If you move up further, would guys like Guerrero and Soto really pose to much size for a Zarate? At 5'8, how he was even a Bantamweight is quite staggering.

GPater11093 · Nov 19, 2009

Peai aint seen alot of Zarate but i agree a boxer-puncher liek Zarate would ahve more trouble with Rose than Olivares in general.

Rose is a really great fighter IMO in a H2H sense. One of my favrouite fighters to watch but his pure boxing skills are like art. I honestly think he causes all Bantams trouble in his day.

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