Otuo Saba. Real deal or hype job?

I never thought of them guys not doing mitt work, make sense now when i come to think about it. The results as you say make me wonder if any trainer is or would be brave enough to not use pads or a minimal amount.

I noticed a lot of top coaches at the moment use pads quite a bit like Manny and Roach.

 

Interesting points about the pads. nice 1.

I can't recall Marquez doing the pads to much, think i seen a little bit when he's working the body bag but more than often using a floor to ceiling bag. I got 1 of them angle bags at home, used to love pounding it:yep

 

Yeah, that would be interesting. I think people just have this idea of missing out on something if they don't use the pads. Some trainers are also too lazy or not brave enough to tell their fighters, even if they don't believe in using the pads excessively.

You're right Freddie uses it a lot, I would NEVER question someone like Freddie Roach. He has amazing boxing eyes but it's interesting because i don't think Eddie Futch was a fan of using them. I don't know, might just be a generation thing.

I like the way Manny Steward uses it best, tbh. He uses the mitts more for punching form and following through the target. I think he's on record as saying he's not big on the way the Mayweathers do it as well.

 

Yeah Manny doesn't like pads being pushed towards fighters hands, he asks fighters to punch through target as you say. He says this is a major problem in boxing. He doesn't like it at all .

 

The fundamentals have been lost. I would say 90% of fighters have really poor foot positioning, really poor balance, really poor hand positioning, really poor punching technique, really poor feints, really poor parrying, really poor defence, really poor timing and really poor distance.

Back in the day there were ALOT of fighters who don't look great on film and may not be as talented as others (including the ATGs) but the footwork, punching technique and basic fundamentals were just better. Not flawless but much better. Maybe it was because they fought 15 rounds and their gloves were smaller, maybe its because they didn't get paid as much and maybe they were just more obedient and better listeners. Whatever it was, there stayed true to the fundamentals of the time, which still happen to be relevant in this era of fighters wearing pillows in 12 rounders.

 

Good post, Achilles.

I watch a lot of old fighters training (what's available) and the thing that is most constant is the use of the bag and particularly the large maize bag. I don't see it used as much now. Using the maize bag, especially the type of the miaze bag that moves a lot and longer in length, works so many things. Not only are you working your power, but your speed, combinations and defence too. If you know how to let the bag slide. The maize bag along with the floor to ceiling bag was Ray Robinson's favourite tools to work in training. While the heavy bag is just for power punches and speed bag is just for speed and coordination, the maize bag combines different elements. The heavy bag also puts a lot of strain on fighters so does sparring so they shouldn't be combined too much. I see a lot of fighters doing that these days.

Speaking of sparring, some fighters miss the point of it today. They take sparring to mean an opportunity to beat someone up and they take it too seriously. The purpose of sparring should be to rehearse and practice, working with your partner and not trying to beat him. You see too many fighters getting into wars in the gym and missing the point. They should be practicing particular moves and techniques.

James Toney said he would constantly work on things in sparring and if he saw a shot he wouldn't take it right then, but keep it in his mind and open it up later on. That way it helped him retain things. Bernard Hopkins is another fighter who understands the purpose of sparring so well. He actually gets Nazim Richardson to work the opponents corner and Nazim tells Bernard's sparring partner certain things he wants him to do and he surprises Hopkins as he knows his strengths and weakness. He'll tell the opponent to shot a right hand or do this in this round without Hopkins' knowledge. A very clever way of doing things and keeping it fresh and sharp. It's no coincidence that Toney and Hopkins are old school fighters. What's left of fighters with that lineage of great knowledge that was passed down by the likes of Bouie Fisher and Pops Miller.

Henry Armstrong and some of his sparring partners would only work eachothers body. Just concentrating on bodywork and hitting to the head was disallowed. There was MUCH more of whats called body sparring before. Even as recent as the Chavez and Whitaker era. Two other great exponents of body sparring. It's not for nothing that they were brillient body punchers. I wonder how many pressure fighters do that much body sparring these days. My guess is not many as the body punching is became less and less a speciality. I lost count of the amount of fights i've watched where i was screaming for someone or another to work downstairs.

 

Good shout, LP. Another great combination puncher too. Nacho's style doesn't really need mitt work, he's old school and probably believes like the old greats that it doesn't have much teaching potential. Can't remember Finito Lopez doing much of it either.

 

I think its true that fighters today lack a lot technically compared to fighters of the past. Physically I think the majority are superior, due to many things, not least the fact they don't need to fight so often so are in that respect fresh. Although it could be argued that durability and toughness wise, they're not as conditioned as past fighters. I'd say explosively, we're better now.

But technically its a different story, everything from stance, to footwork, to punch technique is neglected. I think we lack enough people with knowledge to teach, and I think we lack people willing to take risks and look at how past fighters fought. I think we ingrain bad habits because recent 'heros' suffer from the same flaws, so they're continued and passed down. People aren't looking at Sandy Saddler, Joe Louis or Charley Burley, they're often looking at Joe Calzaghe, or Ricky Hatton, they're what the next generation will aspire to be and thats why I think we'll struggle to ever get back to better technique except sporadically.

 

Yeah I noticed that immediately. Mayweathers pad work and a lot of those of that ilk involve a good deal of moving the pad to the glove, but nothing like the level in that clip. It was literally the pad man throwing punches at the gloves.

 

Good post and agreed. The thing is about punching technique that is overlooked is how easily you can damage your wrist or hand with poor technique hitting a heavy bag. There is not risk with mitts. You can slap, not turn your hand over, have any number of flaws and the weight, impact and resistance is not enough to flag up any issues.

Working on the heavy bag with ensure that these issues become apparent to the fighter straight away. Imagine if a guy only trained on a speed ball, it would be ludicrous.

 

Good point Strike, never thought about it that way.

 

Good posts, fellas. I really like it when a thread turns into something thoughtful like this.

@T- It's sad how knowledge just gets washed away and lost with one generation. Boxing is like that unfortunately. Due to the nature of the sport and how it's structured. Knowledge is not really retained. You make a good point about the successful/popular fighters influencing the next generation. For example because of Ali you had a lot of fighters coming afterwards that tried to fight with that style and imitate him.

@Strike- That's also a very good point, it's why the mitts could sometimes be smoke and mirrors.

On a sidenote: Another little interesting thing about Ray Robinson. He use to walk as much as possible. He said that walking really improved balance and it was important for fighters to walk as much as they could.

 

I love to see kids do really well at any sport but in all honesty watching these "fights" are hard because its like ****ing fencing, horrible just horrble. No one will ever give a **** about these becuase they are just too small

 

Size doesn't matter (that's what she says anyway).

 

Too many fighters are tense, end up loading up on the shot, missing, overshooting, slow paced fights.

Not enough fighters are learning the sport. Not enough sparring. You hear silly things like Wlad early in his career would do something like 60 to 90 rounds for a fight. Not enough fighters going to gyms and finding trouble. MMA is MUCH better in that respect. Fighters willing to spar hard, train with each other and learn.

I'm a HUGE fan of bodywork.