Outboxing Jeffries - What Fighters Can Duplicate...

Right up untill he got KOd in the 24th

 

I agree. MMA gloves are puncher's gloves all the way.

Regarding the gloves of the late 1800's, they were made of horsehair, and became waterlogged / did not protect the hands so well. They might be 6 or 10 oz oz at the start of the fight, but its anyone’s guess how much they weighed at the end of the matches. Maybe 16 oz or more. The 1800’s did not have good wraps either. Not like they have today. These days masking tape can help make fists much harder.

It’s hard to hard to tell if the gloves helped or hurt the real old time boxers regarding punching power. Maybe they helped early in the fight, but hurt later in the fight. Hard to say…

 

This is one of the most informative posts I have ever read.

It explains a lot about changes in technique.

 

The problem is, that people attach way too much great importance in weight, look, muscles, etc., they think of Fitzsimmons and think that a modern today MW would easily KO him in the very 1st round, which is ridiculous. If Bob would have been a black, muscular, mean looking
230 lbs fighter, people would talk different...

 

I don't know much about MMA so i can't really give much response to most of your points, but i would like to ask you why Fedor, the most dominant fighter in MMA in recent years, is not a supermiddleweight?

 

I do agree with the general point you make, though. It's what i have been saying for a long time: boxing 100 years ago was completely different from what it is now, or even 60 years ago. That's why i don't give Fitz, Jeffries or Johnson much chance against modern greats under modern rules, and vice versa.

 

Well my first response would be that Fedor is a heavyweight, and fights only other heavyweights. No heavyweight has beaten him in years, it is my personal opinion that no fighter of any weight can defeat Fedor by any method other than a cut stoppage. I will also point out my previous argument about the added advantage weight gives you in MMA that does not exist in boxing, and note that Fedor is a fantastic wrestler who does use that weight to great effect on the ground.

BUT - and please understand that I am arguing only in defense of logic - Fedor has been a dominant heavyweight, fighting other heavyweights, in a Japanese promotion very short on quality heavyweights. Aside from Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Emelianenko has not fought a deep pool of talent - his second-best opponent would either be Mark Coleman (two fights) or Mirko Filipovic, both of whom have proven to be quite beatable.

But the lower weight classes have a deeper pool of skilled talent that have been segregated, and I think I did make that specific point about only the early days of MMA having open weight classes.

Here, I want you to take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC_5Cfky-o0

That's a very recent fight from Fedor Emelianenko. His opponent is Matt Lindland, an elite *middleweight* and Olympic silver-medalist wrestler.

I don't want to spoil the fight for you if you haven't seen it, but I'm guessing you're perceptive enough to anticipate my argument after you watch this.

 

If Bob Fitzsimmons was a black, muscular, mean looking 230 lbs fighter, then virtualy everybody would have him in their top 20 all time heavyweights based on his record.

 

Interesting, he literally hit Fedor with every overhand left he threw. Maybe Fedor wasn't warmed up or his defense against punches is a bit weak. I don't know much about the ground work though. Was he giving Fedor trouble? Fedor did close the show in little over two minutes, a first round stoppage.


What was Lindland's weight for this fight, by the way? He surely didn't look like 160lbs. I would say more something around 180lbs at least. I don't know anything about him; Wikipedia says he won in wrestling at middleweight, but that was nearly a decade ago. Was there a weigh-in? Perhaps he juiced up?

Steroid use in MMA might be even bigger than in boxing:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dm-mmaroids121707&prov=yhoo&type=Igns


Some quotes:

in California, over the past eight months, there have been 15 steroid positives in 54 MMA events, including major names like Royce Graice, Johnnie Morton, Phil Baroni and Sean Sherk, even though all but Morton publicly claimed they were innocent. Keep in mind that on most of the smaller events, only around six competitors per show were tested.

On big events like UFC, K-1 and Strikeforce, every competitor was tested. During the same time frame, there were two steroid positives in 85 pro boxing events in California and no positives in 13 kickboxing events.
In recent years, three UFC champions – Tim Sylvia, Josh Barnett and Sherk – tested positive in championship matches that they won. In Barnett's case, he tested positive the night he won the heavyweight championship from Randy Couture. Barnett and Sherk were stripped of their title while Sylvia voluntarily relinquished his before it would have been taken away.





If what you say about Fedor's competition is true (and i'll take your word on it) then that is pretty pathetic. Image the fuss if Wlad fought a 2-0 guy. It does prove that marketing can go a long way.


Watching that fight, i did realise that this is not my sport though. I enjoyed watching Fedor highlight video's, but that fight was 10 seconds of action/punching and two and a half minute of two sweaty guys dry humping.. not really my thing.

 

Well, I think the more significant thing is that Lindland would have thrown Fedor to the ground had Fedor not illegally used the ropes to stay standing and regain his leverage. Fedor is considered to be possibly the most dominant fighter in the world from the "on top" position - even the amazing Brazilian fighter (and new UFC heavyweight champion) Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, whose defense from his back is unparalleled, was dominated by Fedor in that position.

So we have an elite MMA middleweight coming within a whisker of putting Emelianenko in a bad position, with only an illegal rope grab preventing it and allowing Fedor to acheive his dominant position. The fact that these two men were even fighting is rare enough, but to see the middleweight come so close to upending the universally-recognized #1 heavyweight in the world is the detail I wanted to emphasize - Lindland did far better than most heavyweights.

I apologize for not assuming you weren't familiar with the weight classes in this sport. They are as follows:

Superheavyweight: 265lb and up
Heavyweight: 265lb
Light-Heavyweight: 205lb
Middleweight: 185lb
Welterweight: 170lb
Lightweaight: 155lb
Bantamweight: 140lb

So Lindland is an elite fighter at 185lb. Fedor Ememlianenko generally weighs 240lb for most of his fights. Lindland didn't cut any weight for this fight and came in over 200lb, while Fedor actually DID drop weight and came in at 230lb (presumably concerned about being too slow against Lindland).

Steroid use is rampant in MMA. The UFC does a terrible job of policing it, but they do a better job than any other promotion in the world. The UFC runs under the auspices of local athletic commissions and is based in Las vegas, so the NSAC requires all fighters in title bouts be tested, as well as an unspecified number of "unannounced" tests for other fighters. In this respect, steroid use in the UFC is monitored about as rigorously as in boxing, but for "MMA" in general, it's closer to where boxing was 10-15 years ago, which is to say nothing.

No no no, that wasn't my contention at all. I'll say it without reservation - Fedor Emelianenko is the best heavyweight fighter I've ever seen. Period! All he can do is fight the fighters available to meet him, and to his credit he's been extremely willing to do so as the champion of the now-defunct Japanese PRIDE promotion - 5 fights in 2003, 5 fights in 2004, 3 fights in 2005, and twice in both 2006 and 2007. Nobody was ducked or shunted aside, it's just that PRIDE's heavyweight division doesn't stack up to their talent at the lower weights. Fedor decisively beat Nogueira twice, and Nogueira has to be considered the #2 heavyweight in the world, especially after his huge win over Tim Sylvia to win the UFC heavyweight championship on Saturday night. After that, there's a big drop-off in ability, but if you duck nobody and clearly dominate the consensus #2 in the world, it isn't fair to claim Fedor is a creation of "marketing".

Bob Sapp, on the other hand...

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I would respectfully suggest that you stop on by for one of my UFC get-togethers

Seriously, I've been a boxing fan since I was around 8 years old. I saw Holmes vs Cooney on ONTV, went to the Verrick Gym on Miami Beach to see Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard hold public sparring exhibitions, and got a noogie from Tex Cobb. You're a big boxing fan too, so you can't tell me that you haven't had to try to explain to your less-educated friends the beauty of technical scientific boxing! Sure, everyone loves to watch a slugfest, but to appreciate Howard Davis Jr.'s perfect jab and deft footwork? Pernell Whittaker's sweet ringsmanship? How would you react to a fan who watched Ed Jofre and complained about "30 minutes of sweaty guys dancing"?

Obviously YOU know there is beauty in boxing beyond two thugs flinging wild punches. There is an artistry in brilliant technical boxing that eludes the casual fan only because they are not educated enough to recognize it - and surely you must admit that they are the poorer for their lack of knowledge!

Well Mr. Pontius, I will tell you with all candor and honesty that the same magnificence of artistry exists in grappling. It is well worth your time to educate yourself on these techniques, and it is to the credit of the modern UFC fan that the audience no longer boos whenever a fight goes to the ground. In fact, there was an excellent example of magnificent grappling technique on display this last Saturday when the aforementioned Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira met 6'8 265lb Tim Sylvia for the UFC heavyweight championship. Nogueira, an elite grappler, had tried all night to get Syliva, a large, ponderous slugger, to the ground where he would have an enormous advantage. Finally in the 3rd round Nogueira dragged the fight to the ground. He made an attempt for a shoulder-lock, Sylvia reacted to defend, then transitioned to a straight-arm bar, forcing Sylvia to react again, and ONLY THEN did he have Sylvia in position for the submission hold he actually *wanted* - a guillotine choke, which ended the fight in 10 seconds. It was an awesome display of jiu-jitsu technique and "human chess" and you'd only notice that his early attempts at submissions were feints if you knew how these moves were supposed to be applied, compared to what Nogueira actually did.

I can't find a clip of the entire sequence, but this is the very end of it:

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In the beginning of the clip you can see Nogueira has Sylvia's left arm isolated, which is all that's left of Nogueira's feinted armbar.

 

Okay, i didn't really recognise the foul but i rewatched it and you are right.

But how significant is this? Basically, a smaller fighter would've have probably had Fedor on the ground if not for different circumstances. And even if he pulled that off, it need not translate into a win at all. I've seen Fedor get floored before and even when he got in a shitty situation, he managed to survive and come back to win.


Compare it to Cooper vs Ali I: Cooper had Ali in trouble (a ton more than Lindman had Fedor, i might add), but one losing effort show that a smaller talented man has the same chances as a big talented man?

Okay, so your example is a 200lbs fighter, a bit over his natural weight, losing to Fedor in the first round somehow shows how a 168 lbs fighter should be able to dominate a heavyweight division?

Alright. By the way, does Fedor fight in both the HW and the SHW division? Because i think i've seen him fight guys who probably were over 265lbs. What was the name of the big black dude who nearly broke his neck with some drop and then lost 10 seconds later?


How many serious casualties are there in MMA, by the way? Doesn't a neck or back break here and there with those real drops, instead of the fake, acted ones in the WWF? I'm not asking to this to denigrate the sport or anything (after all, nothing is more unhealthy than a boxing career), but i'm just curious.

Okay, that was a good argument. MMA IS a very complex sport, more so than boxing because it involves so many aspects of fighting; that's why Fedor could get away with such a (in boxing terms) weak defense against Lindman. I take back my hugging men argument, but i will just say it is not my sport.


Incidentally: no, i have not been able to convince many people that boxing is more than two thugs beating each other up. Most people here watch K1 because it's the only thing that is marketed and it has dutch fighters in the top.