Overrated chins

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bill1234, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. moneytheman12

    moneytheman12 Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    young George wasnt that was heart your talking on him getting up

    he was hurt bad 1st round and hurt every round after by ron so no he wasnt that tough for hard punchers like that

    old George was super tough for shots we argee with that

    ali and jim was stinging George wasnt like he wasnt hurt from those shots he just took time to go down I kept it real you didnt
     
  2. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

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    No you didn’t keep it real. You cherry picked a few instances in Foreman’s career to try and suggest Foreman’s chin wasn’t all that.

    I put those instances into their proper context with due qualifications and gave examples of the steel in Foreman’s chin otherwise in respect of both young George and old George.. Heart is an asset but if your chin isn’t up to it in the first place, heart is a moot point.

    Btw, as it APPEARED in the viewing of their actual fight, George has always said that Lyle hit him the hardest. Not Holy, not Morrison etc. You can reject Foreman’s opinion but it just so happens to match the “truth” seen in the ring v Lyle.

    It was only AFTER I gave an example of George’s chin not being dented by Morrison that you decided to draw a line between young George and old George (the old George you ignored in your assessment but NOW say was super tough).

    So, by your logic, Tyson’s chin wasn’t all that as evidenced from the Douglas fight - because it just took Mike time to go down.

    Foreman’s chin didn’t improve. George’s pacing and metering of his output improved.
    His defence improved a bit also but we still saw Foreman get hit and hit good but no one put him down.

    As to Ali not being a reputed puncher. True but watch the vision of the fight in point, Ali was hitting hard and that combined with Foreman’s own exertions and the heat had Foreman well depleted by Rd 8 but it still took a big punch even then to put George down.

    Ali was also the only guy to stop super tough Bonavena essentially by way of an ATG left hook in rd 15. It didn’t matter if Ali didn’t ordinarily land such a punch - the specific punch in question was nonetheless powerful and perfectly timed. Otherwise, as you might suggest, Ali was hurting Oscar throughout but it just took some time for Oscar to go down. LOL. Tbh, Ali was slugging Oscar pretty good over the course of the fight prior to the 15th rd TKO anyway.

    So again, you didn’t keep it real because you tried to falsely underrate Foreman’s chin before “upgrading”’its quality to protect your irrational overrating of Morrison.

    Here’s a nice still of what Ali was actually putting to Foreman anyway. It’s not the KO shot either, Ali landed this particular right hand in rd 5 as I recall. No love tap.

    This content is protected
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  3. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You’ve been here three months and you’re already one of my favorite posters.

    If you keep outclassing me though, it’s gonna be a problem.
     
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  4. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

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    LOL. Thanks. Nah, you do just fine and I enjoy your posts very much likewise.
     
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  5. moneytheman12

    moneytheman12 Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    how is me nitpicking wrong Its how I debate you peopleI went off the fights you gave I did keep it real the truth hurts like always from me if you didnt want me to nitpick you shouldn't give matches that I can prove wrong

    he wasn't that tough for hard shots shown by ron like I said
    I wont read the page cause I dont like quotes they dont work with me
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
  6. Barrf

    Barrf Member Full Member

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    I'm with you on this one. When discussing George, you have specify young or old, because they're two different fighters, they just both happened to have around the same power. Old George had better conditioning somehow and paced himself well, and had an absolutely iron chin. Young George would gas out and was tough but didn't have the same chin. Old George would have eaten those bombs from Lyle without issue, probably lost on points because he wasn't as good of a finisher, and then went and got some McDonalds.
     
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  7. moneytheman12

    moneytheman12 Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I dont know ron did hit hard I can see George sense being slower then already was means he would still lose

    old George was just better all around except his punch output dropped
     
  8. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

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    I didn’t say nitpicking. I said cherry picking. Entirely different meaning. I also didn’t “give” the Ali and Young fights, you did. I addressed them in reply. Where’s the truth so far? It’s hurting you, not me.

    You not only cherry picked those fights, you cherry picked aspects within those fights with no account for any applicable context.

    If you watch the fights of 70s Foreman you will see he took a great shot when duration, associated fatigue, accumulation of punishment and excessive temperatures were NOT a factor.

    Across BOTH Frazier fights, George absorbed several of Frazier’s signature left hooks flush. He didn’t blink and it was duly noted. Those same hooks could’ve made even Ali (with an undisputedly great chin) wince if not also momentarily stun him.

    Lyle could box but he also could punch, particularly in a dog fight. under heavy duress. He hit George that much harder than even Joe Frazier did.

    I agree, quotes don’t constitute hard evidence. Foreman, the recipient of Lyle’s punches gave his opinion re Lyle’s elite power. As an observer of those same punches, I agree with George’s opinion. That makes at least two of us.

    As far as I’ve read or heard, no one questioned George’s 70s chin. They did, however, understand Foreman’s limited gas tank, fast depleted by his own unbridled exertions. That was the main takeaway.

    Old George was clearly far better measured and paced. As such, the stamina factor wasn’t the issue that it once was so George wasn’t necessarily wavering on his feet due only to his own fatigue, as the case might have once have been.

    Old George absorbed a greater volume of hard shots than Young George did, similar to Ali as his career progressed. Same great chin as before but, unfortunately, just more frequently advertised but still no one hitting him as hard as Lyle did and Old George not nearly so much at the mercy of his own stamina issues or acute temperature conditions which can’t be conveniently ignored.

    Otherwise, using a more extreme example of superficial address, we might just say Ray Robinson’s chin wasn’t as quite as good as it was cracked up to be since he was stopped by Maxim, a LH of medium punching power. That’s ignoring ALL else re that fight and also Ray’s career in whole, of course.

    I don’t know what page re a quote you’re referring to. I linked a still photo of an unmistakably powerful shot being landed by Ali on George, spinning Foreman’s head a good 110 degrees off front and centre and I KNOW from the vision George took it and still kept swinging for all he was worth. I can’t even turn my head that far voluntarily as I type this.

    Anyway…….

    Keeping it real.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  9. mark ant

    mark ant Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Robinson was never stopped aside from when he age or when the heat got him v Maxim, he was never knocked out cold.
     
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  10. mark ant

    mark ant Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No welter could ever take the punch that floored Marciano though.
     
  11. moneytheman12

    moneytheman12 Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    your not seeing what I said when we use only jim ali and ron Match it's all that matters cause they used good tech

    jim and ali did sting George with shots that others wouldnt be stunned by or would a person be as hurt as George was if he was so tough by ron hurt bad from the 1st round and almost fell and every round until then that shows he wasnt that tough for hard shots when young


    we can even reverse it look at ron he took George shots he didnt look as as hurt as George did Ron was tougher then him

    larry was tougher then then George to look at the shots he took vs a way harder puncher in earn and didnt look like he was ready to fall the 1st round
     
  12. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

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    I addressed exactly what you said. I also highlighted how you incorrectly said I brought up Ali and Young when you in fact brought their names into the discussion. I also illustrated how you clearly misquoted what I said, which is ironic given your well advertised distaste for quotes.

    You’re being read properly but you’re not reading properly in kind or at least not addressing the points that have already been put to you in reply to your original statements. Up to you, but you can show me a video and point to when Young was apparently hurting Foreman via his punches. You can see George was rocking from his own fatigue even before Young lands on him. Foreman collapsed in his dressing room, not from Young’s punches but instead from exhaustion/heat exhaustion. You’re ignoring this fact.

    As to Lyle, the shots he hit George with were sharper and more accurate. You can see Lyle using beautiful counter right hands to greater effect and early successes. George’s punches were more the clubbing type though nonetheless powerful. All in all, Foreman took shots as well as Lyle did and overall he obviously took Lyle’s power shots better than Lyle took his.

    As to cherry picking or viewing something in impractical isolation, that same Young did in fact rock Ali back with a right hand in the later rounds - and Ali admitted that punch hurt him. Again, a quote, but again one that matches the vision you can see with your own eyes. Of course that didn’t mean Young was puncher per se, nor did it mean Ali’s chin wasn’t all that (Ali had yet to fight Shavers and survive his far more potent bombs).
     
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  13. ronnyrains

    ronnyrains Active Member Full Member

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    Frazier 8 knockdowns were to George Foreman (68 knockouts)-otherwise his chin was first rate
    'Smokin" Joe Frazier also could have retired undefeated (He was that well off financially)-
    and only been decked by Oscar Bonavena, albeit Mike Bruce supposedly scored a knockdown on Joe!
     
  14. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker Full Member

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    Huge mistake on Ray Robinson ... Robinson fought the best fighters in the world over a twenty five year career and over 200 fights and was never stopped ( heat exhaustion excluded ) .. he had one of the all time best chins. You don't have that level of achievement without the goods, period.
     
  15. Greb & Papke 707

    Greb & Papke 707 Active Member Full Member

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    JM Marquez comes to mind, been floored Aton and gets talked about like he’s made of cast iron