P - o - u - n - d - f - o - r - p - o - u - n - d - t - o - p - 1 - 0 - 0

I don't see what the point of your first sentence is. Middleweight is one of the strongest of the traditional divisions and has been for over a century. Being the 2nd best mw in history really means something. Mw is rich with history and tradition and has been stacked with greats over the decades. Supermiddleweight? Compared to mw it's a pale excuse for a division, it has very little history or tradition and has an absolutely dire standard of champion compared to mw - so the two things really aren't comparable IMO. Monzon fought much better fighters, he beat much better fighters, he was a much greater fighter. We're talking different leagues here. One man beat Emile Griffith twice, the other beat Jeff Lacy (FYI, Calzaghe is the best smw ever in terms of achievement only, the Roy Jones Jr of 94-96 would have annihilated any version of Calzaghe, and I think the pre-Jones Toney would've beaten him as well).

You may pride yourself on your predictive abilites but no offence, I don't really rate your boxing knowledge, so it appears our points of view are too divergent to justify further debate between us. "Workrate, awkwardness and speed" - not the most compelling argument I've ever heard to support your belief that a guy who has never ever fought anyone as good as peak Monzon would definitely be able to convincingly defeat one of the best mw's who has ever lived.

Calzaghe would embarrass Monzon? I find that comment thoroughly embarrassing. Good day to you sir.

 

Cool. I do see the argument for having Tito higher though, there isn't much between them IMO. Two greats.

 

A good idea but an insanely difficult thing to do, what a nebulous concept. The best fighters I have ever seen based on pure ability and h2h are (not in order) Jones Jr, Whitaker, Duran, Leonard, etc etc etc...

I haven't seen Robinson fight at welterweight on film.

 

Great list apart from Calzaghe who should be near 150 more than he is near 100.

 

Joe "very clearly" takes it? Honestly mate, you don't have a clue. You cannot differentiate between levels of quality. The best fighters Joe ever beat were Kessler (unproven to be anything other than a decent short-term alphabet champ), Hopkins (well past-prime, obvious stamina issues), and... er, Lacy or a semi-retired Eubank who had already been soundly beaten by Collins twice. Monzon would have dominated all of them, he would've beaten Kessler and that version of Hopkins far more impressively than Joe did.

For someone who takes pride in their predictive ability, you have made an amateurish error - you are tipping someone with certainty to beat a guy much, much better than anyone he ever fought. As Calzaghe never fought anyone anywhere near as good as one of the very best mw's in all of history, therefore you have no evidence for believing Calzaghe would "embarrass" him. You think Monzon would have trouble with speed, so if I showed you a video of a club fighter, a very fast journeyman beating up another slower journeyman, if you didn't know anything about boxing and so could not differentiate between levels of quality, you would think the speedy club fighter would beat Monzon stylistically. But because you do know something at least about boxing, you would watch the video of the speedy journeyman and say ok, he has speed, but the guy he is fighting is nowhere near the level of Monzon, Monzon may have trouble with speed, but he would still work out a way to demolish this guy. OK, Calzaghe is not a club fighter or a journeyman, but the point is still the same - seeing him brutalize Jeff Lacy or Byron Mitchell, ie seeing him be a very good champion in a weak era against weak opposition does not mean that he could perform like that against one of the greatest fighters in history. Monzon may have trouble with speed, but he has an array of his own skills that he would use. He was a level (or two or three) above Calzaghe, whose whole game revolves around workrate and will - against a peak Monzon, or any peak great, these attributes would not win him a fight - hence the reason why he never fought peak Jones, Calzaghe knew his game was not up to that standard. It never was and never will be.

Calzaghe is the best smw ever in terms of achievement only, Roy Jones Jr is the best smw ever in terms of ability, skill, h2h. I agree with Sweet Pea on this one, Monzon would outpoint him clearly.

 

Charles wasn't a heavyweight though.

 

Cheers mate :good

 

no mate i doubt it very much. but i aint got the knowledge to do a top 100, i'd just be copying other peoples lists.

who would you rate higher? where would winky wright be do you reckon ?

 

Me, being criticized for placing Calzaghe too highly, it's a strange old day on ESB :nut