P - o - u - n - d - f - o - r - p - o - u - n - d - t - o - p - 1 - 0 - 0

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by DINAMITA, Dec 12, 2008.


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  1. Bill Butcher

    Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales Full Member

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    Dinamita - good list, obviously I dont agree with everything but good attempt, here are the things that caught my eye the most as far as disagreeing.....

    Willie Pep should be tier 1

    Lewis should not be on the same tier as Mayweather & Hagler

    Morales & Barrera should be much higher


    All in all... well done, a top 100 would be some hard ****.
     
    Bill Butcher, Dec 17, 2008
    Bill Butcher, Dec 17, 2008
    #226
  2. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Cheers for the comments Bill.

    - You have a fair point on Pep, I can't really argue with that, it's just a matter of opinion and who am I to say he definitely shouldn't be in there.

    - IMO, Lewis most definitely does deserve to be in the same tier as Mayweather and Hagler, though I agree that he cannot be placed above Hagler, Hagler is a superior fighter p4p to both Mayweather and Lewis.

    - I love them both, but I think their placings are just. If you could rewrite my list, who would you be putting them above and around where would they be placed??
     
    DINAMITA, Dec 17, 2008
    DINAMITA, Dec 17, 2008
    #227
  3. dangerousity

    dangerousity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    And you are making the mistake of just because you haven't seen it, it cannot happen. You are going by resume too heavily, though it is important, it should be used only as a reference. All this journeymen examples wont cut it, Joe as I mentioned is the greatest SMW in history, with wins over fellow HOF'ers...Monzon is in the same boat at a lower weight, though his resume is clearly superior, the difference is not ATG vs Journeymen as you would try put it.

    To give you an example, Toney vs RJJ. Up until that point, Toney was perceived to be the much greater fighter...going by resume alone, RJJ hasnt fought anyone near as good as Toney so surely RJJ only looked fast cos he fought "inferior" opponents? OK RJJ had a green Hopkins but at the time, I dont think people perceived Hopkins to be anywhere as great as some fighters on Toney's resume already.

    Another example is Pac-MAB. MAB was the much greater fighter, Pac hasnt had the same level of opposition. Sure Pac looked devastating against inferior fighters but he cant possibly look as devastating against an ATG in MAB could he?

    These are all prime examples where "what you see is what you get", these guys are well capable of beating great fighters, they just havent.
     
    dangerousity, Dec 18, 2008
    dangerousity, Dec 18, 2008
    #228
  4. WhataRock

    WhataRock Loyal Member Full Member

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    Well done on the list Dinamita.

    Really seems solid to me...there are few things Id do differently but I think thats just my bias talking..The only thing that I wanted to say is that personally Id pop Spinks up to the next tier but obviously he is just about on the cusp in your list anyway.
     
    WhataRock, Dec 18, 2008
    WhataRock, Dec 18, 2008
    #229
  5. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Yawn.

    Your knowledge is poor, and there isn't anything I can do to educate you. Your Jones-Toney and Barrera-Pacquiao examples FAIL - because Jones proved to be a far superior fighter to Toney and Pacquiao proved to be a far superior fighter to Barrera, while Monzon has proved to be a far superior fighter to Calzaghe. Sloppy silly analogy amigo.

    I don't know how many times I have to say this before you grasp it:

    Calzaghe is the best supermiddleweight ever in terms of achievement and longevity only - how does a long reign beating poor opposition mean he would succeed h2h v one of the greatest mw's in history??

    Roy Jones Jr was the best supermiddleweight ever h2h, in terms of skill, ability, talent, and sheer brilliance.

    I'm bored of this now. If you think Cal would beat Monzon then you keep right on thinking that, but knowledgable fans will merely find your inability to differentiate between quality levels amusing - one of the most common and amateurish mistakes often made by modern fanboys.
     
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    #230
  6. stonerose

    stonerose Guest

    Top 3 Benn fights fella ? Minus mclellan
     
    stonerose, Dec 18, 2008
    stonerose, Dec 18, 2008
    #231
  7. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Ah right, sorry mate! I had to log off yesterday during our conversation and then I forgot to get back to it. My top 3 would be Anthony Logan (which I only tracked down after I saw you writing about it on a thread a few months ago), DeWitt and Eubank II (I know this was nowhere near as good as the first fight, but I loved this one because I thought Benn won and I was obsessed with Benn at the time!).
     
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    #232
  8. stonerose

    stonerose Guest


    good choices :good . that logan fight is something else no ?
     
    stonerose, Dec 18, 2008
    stonerose, Dec 18, 2008
    #233
  9. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Absolutely immense. No-one could produce a fight like that except Benn, no-one!!
     
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    #234
  10. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Thank you for the comments on the list.

    Pryor is high because I think he is one of the best fighters to have ever fought in the jww division, one of the top three - he scores highly on h2h/ability. I don't think anyone who has ever fought at 140 would dominate him, he was that good. Also, I think his first win over Arguello was a superb win, one of the best of the 1980s. People can say Arguello wasn't comfortable up at that weight or that he was past his best or whatever, but IMO Arguello would have beaten nearly everyone else that has ever fought at jww that night, Arguello is a top 30 ATG IMO, an incredible fighter. Cervantes was also a good win. I think Pryor had the talent of a far higher-ranked fighter, but the lack of depth to his resume prevents me from having him any higher - even though I would like to, he is a personal favourite of mine.
     
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    DINAMITA, Dec 18, 2008
    #235
  11. stonerose

    stonerose Guest

    Does anyone divide opinion as much as Tyson? Alot of people would probably say he is too high , i'd have him higher myself, on the basis that at his peak there are very few Heavyweights who could have lived with him .
     
    stonerose, Dec 18, 2008
    stonerose, Dec 18, 2008
    #236
  12. BoxingFanNo1

    BoxingFanNo1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Since the post where you mentioned you'd done this I figured I'd give it a look. I'd struggle after my top 50, this must have taken ages.

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    Of all 50 I only have 3 real issues.
    Holyfield is never above Lewis imo.
    Hopkins is never above Hagler imo.
    Joe Louis is top 10.

    I won't give reasons cause I'm sure you've heard them all before and I've read your reasons why you've placed people where they are.
    Good job.
     
    BoxingFanNo1, Jan 24, 2009
    BoxingFanNo1, Jan 24, 2009
    #237
  13. smitty_son408

    smitty_son408 J ust E njoy T his S hit Full Member

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    smitty_son408, Jan 24, 2009
    smitty_son408, Jan 24, 2009
    #238
  14. asero

    asero Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    i like the list..you put saddler in proper place...
    i cant get the logic of putting saddler in the top 15 while putting elorde outside the top 100..

    but i still think elorde deserve to be the the 10th tier..he is 130 lbs king for 7 years
     
    asero, Jan 24, 2009
    asero, Jan 24, 2009
    #239
  15. asero

    asero Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    1-10
    Tier One________________________________________________
    Sugar Ray Robinson
    Sam Langford
    Harry Greb
    Henry Armstrong
    Ezzard Charles
    Muhammad Ali
    Roberto Duran
    Mickey Walker

    Tier Two________________________________________________
    Archie Moore*
    Barney Ross

    11-20
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    Willie Pep
    Benny Leonard
    Bob Fitzsimmons
    Ray Leonard
    Pernell Whitaker
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    Tier Three_______________________________________________
    Roy Jones Jr*
    Emile Griffith
    Charley Burley

    21-30
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    Joe Gans
    Eder Jofre
    Alexis Arguello
    Sandy Saddler
    Tony Canzoneri
    Kid Gavilan
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    Tier Four________________________________________________
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    31-40
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    Bernard Hopkins
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    Evander Holyfield
    Jose Napoles
    Lennox Lewis
    Floyd Mayweather Jr
    Holman Williams*
    Ike Williams

    41-50
    Manny Pacquiao
    Salvador Sanchez
    Luis Manuel Rodriguez
    Ruben Olivares
    Fighting Harada*
    Jimmy McLarnin
    Jack Britton

    Tier Five________________________________________________
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    Terry McGovern
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    51-60
    Miguel Canto
    Ted Kid Lewis
    Billy Conn
    Jack Dempsey 'Nonpareil'
    Dick Tiger
    Jack Johnson
    Pascual Perez
    Harry Wills
    Wilfredo Gomez
    Tiger Flowers

    61-70
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    Bob Foster

    Tier Six_________________________________________________
    Duilio Loi
    Pancho Villa
    Tommy Loughran
    Stanley Ketchel
    Georges Carpentier
    Lloyd Marshall
    Carmen Basilio
    Jake LaMotta

    71-80
    Joe Brown
    Manuel Ortiz
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    Tier Seven_______________________________________________
    George Foreman
    Ken Buchanan
    Joe Frazier
    Panama Al Brown
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    Gene Fullmer
    Nino Benvenuti

    81-90
    Mike McCallum
    Kid Chocolate
    Oscar De La Hoya
    Marco Antonio Barrera
    Marcel Cerdan
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    Azumah Nelson
    Erik Morales
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    Ricardo Lopez

    91-100
    Tier Eight_______________________________________________
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    Felix Trinidad
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    Nicolino Locche
    Antonio Cervantes
    Jack Dempsey
    Vicente Saldivar
    Joe Calzaghe
    Benny Lynch
     
    asero, Jan 24, 2009
    asero, Jan 24, 2009
    #240
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