P4P: Burley and/or Johnson?

Well you aren't buying into it either are you?

 

Burley. Johnson just doesnt show me much sorry.

 

Jack Johnson doesn't show you much but Jack Dempsey does? :huh

 

Seeing as we're being picky about the limited footage we have of Williams, I'll say this - Louis was messy in disposing of Jack Roper, who probably exaggerated his fall. Louis' punches didn't seem to crush Abe Simon in the way he expected, and he had to really tee off on him to get the result. The referee stepped in on that one as well, with Simon wanting to continue. Louis also should have disposed of McCoy more quickly and decisively than he did, I feel. I can think of more examples if you wish.

Nevertheless, Louis sits atop of my punchers list. Being picky beyond sensibility doesn't get you anywhere.

The mark of a great puncher for me is not necessarily about consistency in knockouts, because there is more than one way to win a fight (and conserve energy and avoid injury for upcoming bouts), but instead the ability to finish an opponent if needed. The best punchers of all time have showed the ability to punch in combination to the extreme of human limits. Ike Williams' win over Beau Jack is almost unmatched for intensity, just as his knockout of Jose Gatica is hard to equal for accuracy and power per inch. If there was more film of a prime Ike Williams, we'd surely have another five or six knockouts like these to admire, because by all accounts he finished at least several top level opponents just as handily.

1. Joe Louis (extensive filmed catalogue of spectacular knockouts)
2. Ray Robinson (not necessarily a knockout artist in every fight, but again, an extensive filmed catalogue)
3. Henry Armstrong (I would love the footage to back this up, this one is based on records - twenty seven consecutive knockouts and 60-1-1 (51) over three weight classes)
4. Mike Tyson (an obvious choice)
5. Ike Williams (big reputation, limited footage demonstrates an awesome potential)

In the next bracket are; Archie Moore, Ruben Olivares, Bob Foster, Sam Langford, Sandy Saddler, Sonny Liston, Carlos Zarate, Roberto Duran, Alexis Arguello, Wilfredo Gomez, Florentino Fernandez, Rodrigo Valdes and so on.

 

Manassa...

Does Archie crack your top 10? I feel he sometimes get's underappreciated as a puncher today.

 

Williams fought more skilled opponents, more often, faced more problems with managers than Louis could have nightmares about, was avoided, restricted, and rarely had the size advantage over his opponent. So there.

 

Well he was #5 until I remembered Mike Tyson. Probably the smartest puncher of all?

 

There is no speculation, and it's not a case of would have/should have at all. Ike Williams is one of the most notorious ****ing punchers in history

I really don't understand how this has gone so far off track, because, in my mind, the Gatica and Jack fights are pretty much proof that all the old stories of Williams are absolutely true. He ****ing destroyed both of them, just like the old blokes told us. I'm willing to rate Williams right up there and I'll type my fingers off arguing the case.

 

You've basically got two examples that go against the McGrain, to the contrary of hundreds or thousands of contemporary opinions, and they are both stoppages in Williams' favour - one where he breaks a welterweight's jaw and punches him from post to post, the other where he beats the absolute **** out of a fellow great lightweight with an iron jaw. The Gatica fight which you haven't seen backs up my side. As would other knockout footage.

It's been established. You're overly critical of the footage in Williams' favour, disregard the fact that there are many unfilmed finishes that would further do him justice*, it means little to you that he was controlled by the mob and avoided prior to that, as do the reports of fighters and sportswriters of the time who said Williams hit like a truck and crippled fighters like the best in history.

*And that I can and have given examples of your greatest punchers landing flush on certain opponents with less than a desired effect.