P4P Question using Lewis and Tyson as examples.

if this is based on achievements... they fought in the same weight class, so whoever was the greater heavyweight was also greater pound for pound. it's not like one of them fought in other classes too e.g. holyfield, or one of them fought in a time when the weight limit was different e.g. marciano.

if you want to give more credit to tyson for being lighter than lewis, you have to do this with all heavyweights. so someone who weighed 210 achieved more than someone who weighed 220. the 220 guy did better (relatively) than the guy who weighed 230, and so on. not only is this not feasible but it misses the point. anyone who fought in the heavyweight division was fighting opposition who fought in the same weight range.

 

Pound for pound poses the question, if everyone was the same size, who would be the best?

The main thing being that HW is an unlimited weight class, Tyson's prime weight was around 218, Lewis's was around 230-240lbs. There's a 20lb advantage to Lewis and Tyson was arguably as good or better prime for prime anyway

The reason Langford/Fitz are rated so highly is because they are small men having so much success at HW. It shows that they can be some of the best despite their size, the same theory holds true for Tyson/Patterson/Holyfield

 

Again P4P is usually chosen on domination generally speaking. Tyson made it look easier than most heavyweights and fighters in any class for that matter, and thats why he could be a candidate for P4P being a heavy.

 

i would rate tyson higher p4p because if you scaled him down into other weight classes i think hypothetically he would do better than lewis due to his superior punching technique and variety and power for his poundage. He is arguably a better heavyweight than Lewis in the first place anyway,.

 

Well since the Holyfield comment was deemed unhelpful, let's try this again. The smaller fight who goes on to achieve almost or close to a similar result as the bigger fighter is deemed to be the better p4p fighter. This is why I mentioned Holyfield to begin with, because he over achieved relative to his size, where as Lewis, who almost always was the bigger fighter achieved what was expected of him. One could even argue that he shouldn't have lost to either Rahman or McCall, so in that sense he may have under achieved relative to his size. Holyfield beating Foreman and Bowe are examples of him over achieving.

In the case of Tyson, he was usually the smaller fighter and as a result over achieved relative to Lewis, but under achieved relative to Holyfield.

So to clarify this still further and specifically within the heavyweight division, the smaller guy is expected to beat fighters smaller or similar sized to him. That applies to Lewis, Tyson or any other fighter. To the extend a smaller fighter can over achieve and beat guys bigger than him consistantly, that contibutes to him having a case of being a better p4p fighter relative to someone who can't do this. So this generally means, the smaller heavyeights have a distinct advantage over the bigger guys.

 

That would be one way to look at it, as to who would have the more success, it's not only relative to each other, it's also relative to other fighters in the division, and I think one of Lewis' attributes, which goes against him in this particular case, is he used his size as much as possible and fought like the big man he was. That said, if you make Lewis smaller, does he develop other attributes, like more speed and stamina?

that's hard to say.

 

I'd say Tyson was p4p the better fighter than Lewis.
I'd say Dempsey, for example, was p4p the better fighter than Tyson.

But a lot of people say Dempsey should be lumped in with Lewis even in a "pound for pound" assessment because they were both HWs.

I think Tyson is at least very close to Lewis even in a "HW" list, and ahead of him p4p no question.

Lewis doesn't figure highly p4p at all, imo.

 

Yup. Tyson is much the smaller guy. That's why it is P4P. If Tyson had been the size of Lewis there would have been people with nets at ringside, to catch the heads before they flew into the stands.

 

How the hell can it be P4P when they are in the same weight class? So Marciano is P4P the GOAT then?

 

Marciano would be P4P better than Tyson, yes.

Because Marciano weighs (much) less than Tyson and his accomplishments are comparable. Some would say better.

 

Not far off. My p4p rankings of HW greats:

Charles-8
Ali-9
Louis-11
Dempsey-33
Marciano-34
Liston-35
Tunney-37
Frazier-40
Spinks-47
Holyfield-56
Johnson-57
Tyson-58
Holmes-59
Lewis-60
Foreman-77

Obvs my top 15 HW list doesn't look like that.