P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 27)

Just a rant. To sum up, my point is, IMO Greb is top 20, not top 10.

 

I'd bet that it is a statistical fact that big men have the capability for longer careers. Middle-aged natural LWs have no business competing against young middleweight half their age.

Ali, though, may be an exception because he relied on reflexes and those go long before power (think Foreman). I also have to concede how well he adapted after those legs and reflexes diminished. The fact that he did not have the foundation in skill that guys like Moore had at once hurt him and make his 70s campaigns that much more startling...

 

Wow. That is stunning, especially because you're a poster I respect.

Here are Greb's scores by mine:

-25 points-
Experience: 25

-15 points-
Ring Generalship: 14
Longevity: 15
Dominance: 13

-10 points-
Durability: 10
P/LO: 10
Intangibles: 10

TOTAL: 97

--compare those to Duran's. I'd be interested to hear your retort to the numbers anyway.

 

How can you 'score' a fighter you've never seen?

 

Fair enough, it is impossible to argue with this.

Though i wonder how much Bob Fitzsimmons claim in this current survey will be hurt by people simply not including his era in their lists. I understand why they do it, but i think it will give a skewed result in the current survey.

The Ali argument you guys are having is an interesting one. I rate Ali the no 1 heavyweight of all time, but i do so on the basis of intangibles and the fact that he is physically equipped better than all other heavys. ie he is the fastest ever, has best chin ever etc. One thing is for sure, on a pound for pound basis, his speed is absolutely off the charts. In fact, if you look at P4p on a head to head basis, It would be very interesting to see how absolute speedsters like Tunney, Pep, Greb, Robinson etc would go with an opponent who was substantially faster than them, because no such person has existed and p4p Ali was quite a lot faster, in fact he may even have been out and out faster. If you accept this, then it means that may actually be reduced to Liston type speed, and need to rely on power to hurt Ali adn their chin to avoid his quick shots. History does tell us, that when Ali is faced with a slower opponent with a great chin and big power advantage, he usually knocks them out before they knock him out, no matter how great they are (Foreman, Liston). In this regard, some of the great speedsters may fit this bill once things are adjusted for pound for pound qualities, and i can see why Ali might be placed as high as number one for this reason.

 

Duran would edge Greb in every department you listed with the exception of Ring Generalship, Durability and Experience which would be pick-em's.

Greb's early death meant Duran had the edge in longevity, being a player in five divisions (three classic wight) for nearly 20 years.

Duran's dominance at the peak of his powers, surpasses Greb in time (eight years: 72-80).

Duran showed his durability against world class opposition for a dozen years until a peak Tommy Hearns, a naturally bigger man, hammered Duran.

But even then, there would be one final miracle when Duran beat the man who destroyed Tommy (Barkley) .

And I cannot name anyone with more intangibles than Duran. He basically successfully rebuilt his career three times, being three different fighters.

 

The same way that historians rank emperors, generals, presidents, and the like.

I used to have that same line of thinking as you. Then I started digging up the record and the names on that record of his, and reading the reports of his contemporaries -including fellow fighters who saw him or fought him. Do it, and what appears murky to you know will become clear. You may have to make the honest, though painful choice that I was forced to make and place Greb over Robinson.

 

Right, it absolutely skews the results. I think every list that includes guys who hit their prime before 1920 is problematic.

Well, this sounds like Bert Sugar's criteria where he pretends that all the fighters are the same size. It doesn't make any sense when you think about it. Styles are partly determined by height and to shrink fighters as if they are shrinky-dinks stretches things too far. This stuff is subjective enough.

As for Ali being superfast at 147 -I see no scientific justification for that claim, but who knows. Greb was sworn to be lightning fast and with endurance that was extraordinary -he seemed a freak. It is a stretch for some because there is no film, but then, assuming that Ali would be even more of a phenom at 147 is even more of a stretch.

I think it more likely that he would not have had anywhere near the success he had at HW had he been a LW or a WW -and the reason is because there aren't usually the slow and lumbering types with laughable punch stats among those guys. He'd be forced to face fast guys with better technique than he could summon -and skill usually makes the difference.

 

I love Duran, but I don't think that he can compare to Robinson, Armstrong, or Charles. Greb? No way. Greb fought 300 times -45 times in 1919. He was firing up big guys who he should not have been in the ring with and that stuff about Dempsey -I looked into it and believe it completely. Durability? Greb fought with broken bones. Intangibles? No one compares to Greb. No one. Considering what obstacles he overcame, he's up there with POWs in that department.

 

Sounds like the same evolution I went through. To the proverbial "T"

 

Yeah thats true that he was fighting in the heat also, but he was doing **** all through out the fight while Robinson on the otherhand was boxing his head off throwing combinations all night using up energy.

 

I`ll stick to fighters Ive seen decent footage of (no disrespect to Greb & co)

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Willie Pep
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Roberto Duran
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Joe Louis
8. Pernell Whitaker
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Thomas Hearns

 

OK

 

This list is based purely on who is the best in regards to Hd 2 Hd and there performances.

( Also I don't include fighters where there is either very little or no footage of them )

01. Sugar Ray Robinson
02. Sugar Ray Leonard
03. Muhammad Ali
04. Pernell Whitaker
05. Marvellous Marvin Hagler
06. Roberto Duran
07. Henry Armstrong
08. Ezzard Charles
09. Joe Louis
10. Ike Williams

 

For me it would, Id put Pac top 10 if he beat Mayweather (I think Mayweather beats him tho tbh)