P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 27)

It's all debatable. That's the point of the whole exercise.

The assertion that Ali's -fistic- legacy has been inflated by the American media and baby-boomers who consider him a hero is well-confirmed by the culture at large. The wide insistence on considering "impact on society" as part of the criteria is a poorly-disguised vehicle to catapult him too high. One the other hand, your assertion that anyone who doesn't include Ali in the top ten is "over-reactionary" may be applicable to a few posters on this site.

One problem (if it is so) is large, the other (if it is so) is microscopic. Name another published top ten list that doesn't include Ali in the top ten. I can think of a grand total of ....one. And the rationale for that placement is too much to write that loan list off as "reactionary."

 

I'm using primary sources. And to dismiss Greb because you didn't see him with your own eyes is too simple and too convenient.

You keep making the claim that the list is head-to-head weighted. How so?

 

This all rings pretty true. But did you have Burley ahead of Ali? That's one pill I don't think I'd be able to swallow.

 

I agree. I like Stonehand´s list, especially his criterias and that it´s very well researched and explained but I very much think he gives Burley too much credit.

 

My criteria:

1. Record. Wins and losses. Opposition, but also size and age difference (distance from prime) are important factors

2. Perfomances. How impressive were the wins and how wide/close were the losses? Preferred source for this is film, but if not avalaible I'll go for first hand accounts (match reports).

3. ...

4. ...

5. General assesement of the fighter from contemprorary sources. Due diligence is important here and that's why it's a lesser criteria. For example, how much weight should I put on Dundee rating Ali ahead of Leonard? Not much, considering how he phrased it.


From that:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Sam Langford
8. Roberto Duran
9. Joe Gans
10. Joe Louis

 

Because you're judging them on your perceived attributes.

 

Yes, but a heavyweight is a great heavyweight on the basis of what he achieves compared to other heavyweights. A welterweight is a great welterweight on the basis of what he achieves compared to other welterweights. A long-time dominant heavyweight champion such as Lennox Lewis or Larry Holmes is often looked upon more favourably than a welterweight/middleweight who incurred some losses whilst battling in a very competitive division, because the heavyweight fighter stood out in a weak era and beat everyone available in a weak era, whereas a welterweight/middleweight did not achieve such things, despite facing consistently tougher comp. Lewis or Holmes did not face opposition to match the opposition faced by guys like Bivins and Marshall, yet they are frequently ranked higher by history because Lewis and Holmes are more integral to heavyweight history and achieved more at their own weight than Bivins or Marshall did at any weight they competed at.

 

I think most people on here concur that the top 5 fighters are:

Langford, Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Charles

And that you can mix n match the order of those five, but those are the five?

 

Does anyone have Jimmy McLarnin in their top 10?

 

Bob Fitzsimmons belongs to that group IMO.

I saw nobody mention McLarnin but I saw Ross and Canzoneri.

 

Yep, that's the only flaw in his ratings. Holman Williams beat more rated fighters than Burley did; but I bet he's quite a few places down the list.

Burley on my list might make #40, when you consider fighters like Billy Conn, John Henry Lewis, Gene Tunney and Michael Spinks might also deserve a place in front of him (and that's just a few light heavyweights).

 

Its not all about whats written down on paper , at least not for me, I need to have visual evidence that justifies the written down stuff.
Langford & Charles have **** footage, especially Langford & Greb (no1 on a lot of lists) has ZERO footage.

Robinson & Armstrong do make my top 5 tho, the others are Ali, Pep & Duran.

Ps. The amount of top 10 lists on here that dont have Muhammad Ali is ridiculous IMO.

 

Aside from Stonehands, who else is there who excludes him? Personally, I think it's more pertinent whether he should be top 5 than if he should be top 10.

 

:huh