P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 27)

Stonehands I don't think that this post is one of your better ones. Ali was only ever once stopped and he hadn't been down, was shot to pieces and was facing an ATG. Fought every puncher in an era of great punchers (I don't feel that you can compare the power of Leonard to the likes of Foreman, Shavers, Lyle or Frazier) as well as the fact that he fought in a division where knockout ratios are generally much higher than at light or welterweight.

 

I never had before, but you have to understand that I applied the values cold -not comparativley- and then let the totals fall where they would.

Burley and Moore were the only 'masters' of Murderers' Row that I know. And I don't believe that Frazier, Foreman, or Norton are better than those guys. Bigger, but not better.

 

I'm not following you.

 

If I had used a different criteria or different values, the list would have been different. That's obvious. I think that some posters here are going with their gut -preconceived notions that Ali, for example, was 'greater' than Burley/Duran and so needs to be over them. I'm saying that such notions cause a problem from the outset. (I see where you rank Ali, so that isn't at you M).

Try thinking up a fair set of criteria, and then score each fighter as honestly as you can. Resist the temptation to adjust their scores based on prejudice. Before The GoW series, I would routinely rank Ali between 8-10. According to this more rigorous measure, he is at 12. He's the top HW ever, but not greater than 10 or 11 others.

 

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Gimme a break, Ricardo -I'm fighting on seven fronts here!

The criteria for durability also considers their reflexes and defensive prowess. Ali wasn't often touched until '71. And early in his career he was criticized for his chin -with evidence. When was Duran ever criticized for his?

Ali was rarely the smaller man -he was roughly the same size as Foreman. Duran fighting Barkley is akin to Ali fighting King Kong. Add to that the point that the amount of shots thrown and landed among the big boys is routinely less. Damn right they hit harder, but they also punch less. Ali had less to deal in terms of incoming.

Regardless, I have no problem with Ali and Duran being equal or roughly equal.

 

Fair enough. Even though I like your list in the main, I think your criteria can lead a bit astray at times and that may be the case here. There are so many attributes going into a fighter that it's just about impossible to sum them up and get an end product that way. That's way I prefer looking at the body of work. There you have the attributes turned into end product in terms of result.

But I loved your "Gods of War" too much to make that much fuss about it.

 

1. Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Willie Pep
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Benny Leonard
10. Mickey Walker

 

I'm pretty happy with the end, though I was surprised that Pep was as low as he was and that Burley was as high as he was. The only placement in the Ten that I'm not completely secure with is Burley. I am happy with the essay, though. So what the hell. Then again, the number 10 spot is going to be controversial because the door closes after that throne is filled. I have a little feeling that the more people learn about Burley, the less controversial it will be when he eventually starts popping up into more lists. Burley was a great, great, fighter. And the fact that he had no crown doesn't and shouldn't exclude him.

As per your looking at the "body of work." Isn't that too open-ended? It seems to inductive... the risk is that you'll have a list in your mind and then stick each candidate where you want based on something, well, vacuous. No? I have a lot of problems with the main lists out there -Sugar's, ESPN's, The Ring's --they make no sense to me. None. Bill Gray did the opposite of what they did (which is use polls of causal boxing fans, or pull names out of a hat, or use inane categories like "impact"). Gray used heavy quanititative analysis ....and he ended up with Benny Leonard at #139. So, it's really kind of an art and a science. You gotta know what the hell you're talking about, but you also have to have some semblance of objective calculations.

Well, thanks.

Buy the book.

The manuscript is almost done and I'm just about done with the cover letter to North Point Press (they published Liebling's boxing essays and I'm trying to convince them that The Gods of War is an extension of The Sweet Science). Wish me luck. I'm gonna need it.

PS/ this thread seems to be winding down. I just want to say thanks to all those who threw shots my way. I needed it. I don't want to get all personal -suffice it to say that I had a rough time the other day and was itching for a fight. I got obliged by more than a few and some drew blood. That's my idea of fun -with a bonus- because no one goes to the clink.

 

I don't know you, but that isn't a bad list. It's always good to see Walker in there.

 

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Nobody is doing that here and nobody here cares about the people that do (When talking about ranking, and not boxing impact). I haven't see anyone with that as their criteria to justify Ali's placement. Ali hardly needs it... he stands far and away with his achievements and body of work to distinguish himself among the HW division. If you think the HW division is lackluster in comparison to the skills of other divisions that's another argument.

You made a post talking about HWs being able to fight longer. I actually think it's the other way around. These big guys deal with big heavy damage and punchers and generally can't have long careers. Sure their are exceptions with styles and people, but once they get past 60+ fights it starts pushing things. Can't imagine them fighting as much as SRR, Pep, Duran, Greb, etc... especially in the post 60's HW era. I mean to see a skilled swarmer-boxer type like Duran (Yes, supremely skilled and adaptable) to be able to fight such a long career many divisions above his best weight is phenomenal. Could never see Frazier, Marciano, Tyson and Dempsey types fighting well in their 30's with that style as successful. I think this also hurts Heavyweights in P4P talks.

Fair enough.

Plenty here, I'm not sure about published but wouldn't that support my thinking then?

 

Great list Bojak. It's fits your criteria and is uniquely your own.

 

For me, yeah. I think the 4 locks are Langford, Robinson, Greb, and Armstrong. A lot of people rank Bob highly, and I feel Charles can be swapped with Pep or even Duran if you really wished it. I don't really see how Fitzsimmons ranks above Langford, nor the other 3 though but some will argue he does. Langford proved way more, though... **** giving standards to historical achievements/distinctions when you don't get the fair chance.

 

I know the thread is winding down, and really appreciated your list post in this thread. All class, and it's great seeing you come to these quarters due to your knowledge and the great extensive prose you provide.

I think Duran is better defensively, at least less susceptible to getting caught flush early on the way Ali could due to him merely using his speed and reflexes (Like the shot Ali took from Cooper) Ali's chin was speculated as to being bad because it was pretty unproven.

Considering the strategy he took upon against Foreman... the body punches he took. Anyone who comes away taking a flush shot from Shavers and standing upright is truly showing their powers of recovery and durability. Duran just didn't take this kind of punishment, he adjusted or fought a different fight tactically. Ali got older and tactility relied on his will to outlast fighters. Maybe this makes Duran a better, more special fighter... but it doesn't make him more durability. Even in just FOTC I'm suprised by Ali lasting the distance and taking the body-punches he does. Duran didn't just ever prove his worth in durability... which is why his career lasted as long as it did. And Duran was sparked near his prime from 1 punch. I think Shavers and Foreman are P4P juggernauts when it comes to power and are comparable enough to Hearns (Just ask Larry Holmes).

I think the natural weight theory on chin gets overstated. Duran is fighting Barkley well above his weight class but he has the added strength in his legs, neck, shoulders to take a punch. Do you think his 135 pound former self could take these shots? Heck no... while he's not a natural MW he still can't "naturally" fight and make weight at LW. That's an important distinction.

I think the better question is... if Ali is an 8 what HW is a 9 or even 10 in that category?