P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 27)

You've proved yourself a very good analyst of fighters, style , match ups, skill sets etc and so i'm sure you can recognise that Fitzimmons comp doesn't have anywhere near the technical ability of say Barney Ross' or Benny Leonards. It was a young sport, the defensive techniques that would become so ingrained were sorely lacking and yet we gape at a very hard puncher wearing 5 or 6 oz gloves scoring these KO's? Is it even boxing at all?

The Corbett fight for instance, Mcgrain argued I think that such a stoppage was one of the best wins ever. Stopping his man with a single shot, well there have been numerous one punch knockouts of top fighters since then, what is so remarkable about that victory which makes it one of the greatest ever? I don't see Bob or Corbett displaying the level of skill seen in fights of Gavilan, Duran, Napoles etc etc and the list goes on.

But here we come to the crux of the question, you will point out Bobs longevity, dominance over said opposition and three championships (as they were back then) for the difference between the light heavy and heavyweight championships is pretty blurred. So if it is Bobs dominance that has him rated so highly then why is Manny Pacquiao not a top ten ATG, or Chavez, or RICARDO LOPEZ.

I'm not going to get into a protracted arguement here but its obvious to me that Fitzimmons competition was not to the standard of other top ten ATG's and although I to place him in the 15 - 20 range if you can convince me that he deserves a ranking of FIVE then hats off to you.

 

It was a different sport at the time. Of that I'm not going to argue. However, in the context of the times, Fitzsimmons was as dominant a champion as there's ever been. If your argument is that he fought during easier times, I'd disagree. The differing rules and regulations of the time garnered different techniques tailored to suit them. You'll notice that the sport evolved accordingly with the rule/regulation changes as necessary. That doesn't mean any particular point up to the beginnings of the modern era was weaker in the sense that the competition was less fierce. It was just as much so as many others when looked at in context, I'd say.

And if you stand by your views on the relative crudeness of the era, would it not make Fitzsimmons's achievements and abilities all the more remarkable in that he was a pioneer and a changing of the guard type of fighter? There are precious few of these throughout the sport's history, after all.

It was a display in patient, methodical punching more than a boxing display outright. Fitz was never going to outbox a larger technician like Corbett, so instead he relied on biding his time, taking his punishment in stride, picking his shots when they came, before finding the opening he was looking for and threading the needle for the pin point solar plexus KO. A great victory, in my opinion. Perhaps not too disimilar to an early version of Chavez/Taylor, only magnified 10 fold due to the size disparity.

Fitz was a natural Middle/Super Middle his entire career, fighting and finishing men outweighing him by as many as 100 pounds. He was the best fighter in the world for a period spanning over a decade, claiming the World Titles between Middleweight and Heavyweight during this period, and proving himself conclusively the best at each during a time of 8 weight classes and one World Title. What have Lopez, Chavez, or even Pacquiao done to compare? Don't disregard Fitz's physical handicap when answering.

I suppose it all depends on how willing you are to except my response to your first two paragraphs, really.

 

The best light heavyweight knocking out the best heavyweight with a great body punch to the pit of the stomach. Great win but once again do you make allowances for Fitzimmons competition due to the era he fought in.

As for the perception of peers at the time well thats pretty much irrelevant. There are numerous cases of contempary fighters, trainers, promoters talking absolute bollocks and if we're looking at aura then where is Mike Tyson on these ATG lists :huh

 

I'm with you on this one. I don't see how he's a top 3-4 guy for anyone really. His record is no where near as impressive as Langford from what I know. And him getting beaten by Corbett before getting the KO reveals a limitedness in his skills. Nothing to marvel about, regardless of how "unique" of an achievement it is. I don't rank by unique achievements, unless it's like someone holding 3 titles at once (But a win is a win). Liston blowing Patterson out in the 1st round twice is more "unique" but Foreman doing this to Frazier in the 2nd round is much more impressive because Frazier is a much better more proven HW. Thus, "Uniqueness" is trivial and has no meaning as to what's far and away the better win & performance.

 

Ranking him in the top 10 is one thing. I think the guy fits fine somewhere in your top 20. Not really seeing this top 5 stuff. Langford, Greb, Armstrong, and SRR have a far more impressive record to me regardless of even trying to dissect this guys skills. The weight/size disadvantage in Greb's win over Tunney is comparable to Fitz over Corbett as is. Forget about the rest of his wins at HW and his resume at LHW.

 

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Sam Langford
5. Muhammed Ali
6. Roberto Duran
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Joe Louis
9. Benny Leonard
10. Willie Pep

 

Wrong. If you are fighting arguably the greatest fighter of all time, which he was, and you are a middleweight (not super middleweight), and you are even getting old and possibly past prime!, it might not be an easy fight, and it might take you a while to wear down your opponent, which it did (this wasnt an isolated one punch fluke). Fitzsimmons slowly slowed and wore down his opponent. Could you imagine Sugar Ray Robinson (for example) comprehensively outboxing Gene Tunney? or Ezzard Charles? Because neither was really considered as great in their time as Corbett was.

But leaving that aside, you asked for dominating performances. An OLD fitzsimmons actually dominated Jim Jeffries, an all time great superheavyweight, before being KOd. More impressive than the Maxim fight, imo.

And i think you asked for the dominating performance against an all time great that was supposedly missing. Well at his own weight and with both close to prime, he fought the all time great middleweight Jack Dempsey. He dominated, of course.

 

Well you must as well stop there but we'll continue anyway. I mean Corbett won 14 bouts from the ones listed. Tunney won 80 and only loss once.

Well Boilermaker, he weighed in around 167 pounds. Fitzimmons might've been a natural MW but at that time he was weight fluctuated around the MW area to 175 pounds. Your wearing down description isn't the way I've heard others describe it. I'm hearing Bob set a trap and amazingly landed the punch he needed. So I'm not sure. How past his prime was Bob at this point?

No I couldn't, I'm getting your point.

However, that might parrtly say more about the time rather than the truth of the matter. That's why these fighters are now getting their deserving dues. I don't think I have to mention how society was back then... nor do I have to mention that Corbett is white. Charles I think is much greater than Corbett.

That's odd considering Maxim was formerly on your top 10 P4P list. Well, I guess not since Fitzsimmons had to deal with a severe weight disadvantage and Robinson doesn't have make your top 10 P4P list. Of course, neutral thinking there.

I think I did mention that he doesn't seem to dominate as much or as consistently against greater opposition as the other ATGs I mentioned. I just think they have a better track record. The MW Jack Dempsey is a good win, no doubt.

Boilermaker since this is clear as the day for you that Bob is the GOAT do you know of any other historian/writer that feels this way. You think highly of the opinions of what they thought about Corbett, I'd be interested to what your thoughts are regarding their views on Fitsimmons. Not that that discredits your viewpoint. This is not a popularity contest.

 

Which he avenged by knockout (although I haven't been able to track down that fight, so going by secondary source).

Packey won according to the majority of newspaper accounts.

 

The final list after one last revision:


1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Willie Pep
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Muhammad Ali
7. Benny Leonard
8. Roberto Duran
9. Archie Moore
10. Joe Louis

 

1. Sam Langford
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Harry Greb
5. Joe Gans
6. Benny Leonard
7. Ray Robinson
8. Joe Louis
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Willie Pep