P4P Top 10 Official Survey (Poll Closes October 27)

I think you might have miscounted there a bit. In reality, his recorded wins are more like about 50. I think Mendoza posted most of these fights once, but either way, it doesnt really matter how many wins he had. He beat John L Sullivan, who was considered the greatest ever, and he drew with Peter Jackson, who many also considered was the greatest ever. I am not saying that he was the greatest ever, in fact i dont think he was, but he was probably the greatest athlete to hold the title ever, and he had a scientific style thought to be second to none by most, and many people legititmately ranked him the greatest ever. Incidentally, Tunney also was great and is underated. But he was naturally smaller than Corbett, not the athlete, and to be honest, i am pretty sure that Tunney would think twice about making himself favourite against corbett.

He weighed in at 158 pounds when he won the title. 167 is a boxrec error.

Corbett started off dominating the action with speed and power. He had even knocked Fitz down earlier and nearly beat him. But, reports are pretty clear that the tide had turned by the time Fitz caught him with the famed solar plexus blow. Incidentally, although it is called the solar plexus blow, the punch is described in Fitzys manual which is available online. the famed solar plexus blow is actually a solar plexus punch followed by a left shift. Even now most people with tell you it was just a straight left. Yes, Fitz did set a trap, but it wouldnt have worked if he had not wore down Jim first.

I am not sure what it says about the time. Most people at the time, thought the older guys were better fighters than the modern guys, because of the softening of rule changes and harder training. I really dont think that racism played much of a part in peoples thinking as we think today, adn i think it was more a marketing gimmick which prevented fighters from taking risky fights or built up bigger rivalries. Peter Jackson had massive support. Wills had massive support. Langford was popular. Corbett was considered great, because he was great. Same with Jackson. They should have had a rematch, but they didnt. Let us not forget that Corbett did actually fight Jackson prime for prime, and he actually fared better than Muhammed Ali did against Joe Frazier.


Corbett's win over Sullivan is every bit as big as charles signature win over Louis or Walcott. His draw with Jackson is every bit as impressive probably more so than Charles win over Walcott. Choynski is as big a win as any light heavy victory Charles had. I agree that Charles is great and underated as a champion, but he is at his very best about the same proposition as Corbett. Glad to see you get the point though.

I think that Robinson is still a very, very great fighter, despite missing out on this particular list. Maxim is a great, great fighter (even if not top 10 p 4 p), but you dont seriously think that Maxim would compete with Jim Jeffries, on level footing, do you? Fitz did a lot more damage to Jeffries than Ray did to Maxim.

Actually he was a hell of a lot more dominant. Dont forget Hall, Maher, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Creedon and his string of contenders that he knocked out in less than 4 rounds. How much more dominant is it possible to be?

No one in their time, thought there was a fighter who compared with Bob Fitzsimmons. Tommy Ryan, who has a record every bit as good as Sugar Rays (for his time) or at least if it isnt as good it isnt far off, once suggested a fight with an old bob Fitzsimmons, and it was virtually laughed at by most of the press. I am not sure what your point is here.

By the way, i was not always a fitzsimmons fan. I remember laughing at the idea that he was top 10 at light heavy, or even anything special at middleweight and certainly not in a pound for pound list. But honestly, the more you look into bob Fitzsimmons, the more he surprises you. It really does defy belief.

 

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Harry Greb
5. Roberto Duran
6. Sam Langford
7. Joe Gans
8. Benny Leonard
9. Jimmy Wilde
10. Mickey Walker

 

Great retort, fair play to you. I'm not sure if Choynski is a better win than anything Charles had at LHW though. Most of his best wins came at MW anyway, which are far greater wins the Choynski one (Burley, Moore, etc).

Jeffries is far bigger, so no. However, I think Ray was closer to winning. That's another discussion in and of itself though.

But, not having Ray in your top 10 just feels like an act of non-conformity. I'm sorry, just how I feel.

Relative to the era and the quality of opposition it's not the same imo. But fair point.

I'm just curious of your opinion on historians view on him and contemporary thought as well. No angle here. Maybe I need to look more into him. Your last paragraph speaks volumes if true.

 

Honest to god, I don't care how well written your posts are that is a **** list. I still think it's a joke list to be honest.

 

1. SRR
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Harry Greb
4. Sam Langford
5. Muhammad Ali
6. Ezzard Charles
7. Joe Louis
8. Benny Leonard
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

 

It's not that bad. Why do you think it's terrible, because it's an old-school list? I mean, I know we can both mention from our vantage point how he's ridiculously overrating Fitzsimmons, but with the people around here how could he not. I think Gans gets overlooked on these lists. Ray Robinson is way to frigging low. Didn't see that at first. Never gotten how Benny Leonard is above Charles in some people's lists.

 

After all that you come busting my balls when I say I don't feel the guys a top 5 guy? And you have frigging Muhammad Ali at #5? Amazing.

 

Well personally I think that leaving Charles out is indefensible. Robinson although too low is at least there now instead of behind Joey maxim. Although I don't really mind seeing gans in there the absence of Duran is also pretty inexcusable, I mean on the one hand he rates dominance extremely highly but then argues that the likes of maxim should be included. Mind boggling really to say nothing of his ranking of Fitz

 

Yeah, Charles not making it is tough. Robinson is oddly low. I don't think Maxim was ever on Unforgiven's list... that was Boilermaker. I don't think Duran's as much of a lock in a top 10 P4P list as I think Charles should be, but I get you. I wonder where he rates SRL...

 

Thanks.

Well, it's not a joke list, though I'll admit it's certainly not written in stone. I can think of 5 or 6 others that could easily be included at some of those names' expense. And I could easily live with the order of the names I have being re-arranged to some degree.
It's no joke, I've named ten genuine p4p ATGs, all of whom I believe should definitely be on anyone's top 20-25.

Why do you say it's a **** list ? Which fighters do you think are not worthy of being in the discussion ?

 

Some people get offended if Ray Robinson isn't in the top three.

It's alright, I get offended when Benny Leonard isn't in the top ten.

 

Adepted to the rules of the thread, meaning I take the top2/1/5/2 from the eras and put them down in the order they came along:

1. Bob Fitzsimmons
2. Sam Langford
3. Harry Greb
4. Mickey Walker
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Ray Robinson
7. Ezzard Charles
8. Roberto Duran
9. Ray Leonard
0. Pernell Whitaker

 

I guess I´m kind of a rebell then.