Pacquiao and the black fighter dilema

bladerunner · Nov 17, 2009

nastynas said: ↑

He is black. Being black and being Latino is not mutually exclusive.

Sammy Sosa, Felix Trinidad, Tego Calderon, etc- Black Latinos (african heritage is most predominant over native and spanish)
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Did you ever saw a list of the best black fighters with Jose Napoles,Luis Rodriguez or Kid Gavilan there?

I Havent,but i have seen them on lists with the best latin fighters.

BigReg · Nov 17, 2009

Jorodz said: ↑

there's no dilema. pac fights the best at or around his weight. who gives a **** if they're black?
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My point was that he doesn't avoid black fighters, his team avoids slick fighters. Most of them happen to be black which is why he's been accused of avoiding black fighters.

Jorodz · Nov 17, 2009

BigReg said: ↑

My point was that he doesn't avoid black fighters, his team avoids slick fighters. Most of them happen to be black which is why he's been accused of avoiding black fighters.
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exactly. correlation is not causation: he avoids slick fighters who HAPPEN to be black, not black fighters. just cause they're black doesn't mean that's why he stays away

AdiC · Nov 17, 2009

BigReg said: ↑

Both. Latino and black are not mutualy exclusive; Latino is a ethnicity, black is a race. There are a ton of people in latin countries who have just as much African blood as a black American.
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So which were you talking about? Black as in Black Fighter or Black mixed?

BigReg · Nov 17, 2009

bladerunner said: ↑

Did you ever saw a list of the best black fighters with Jose Napoles,Luis Rodriguez or Kid Gavilan there?

I Havent,but i have seen them on lists with the best latin fighters.
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Latino simply means that you are an inhabitant of a country that was a former territory of Spain. Columbians are Latino. Edison Miranda is Columbian. Edison Miranda is black.

BigReg · Nov 17, 2009

Jorodz said: ↑

exactly. correlation is not causation: he avoids slick fighters who HAPPEN to be black, not black fighters. just cause they're black doesn't mean that's why he stays away
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:thumbsup

enzo · Nov 17, 2009

not this again. atsch

bladerunner · Nov 17, 2009

BigReg said: ↑

Latino simply means that you are an inhabitant of a country that was a former territory of Spain. Columbians are Latino. Edison Miranda is Columbian. Edison Miranda is black.
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Hes as black as it gets but when people mention his race they say hes latin they dont say hes black.

I didnt made these rules im just stating what everyone does.

BigReg · Nov 17, 2009

Jack said: ↑

It doesn't "happen" that they are black at all. It's true that a lot of the most elusive fighters are black, but which elusive black fighters has Pacquiso not fought? He fought the very best and they just happened to be mostly aggressive fighters.

The fact is, there aren't many elite black lower weight fighters. Blacks tend to dominate from 140lbs upwards which rules them out for the majority of Pacquiao's career. Now who is there? Nate Campbell, who is hittable. Holt, Mayweather, Bradley, Mosley, Berto...? Only one us elusive. Of the black fighters around Pacquiao's weight, none were that good or elusive.

It's true that Pacquiao hasn't fought these but there's no point to be made, at all.
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:thumbsupBingo, this is my point. The few fighters at the lower level that happened to be slick are not big draws. As a result, they will be avoided by guys like Pac. Mayweather is the worst stylistic matchup out there for Pac. He will fight him thought because their is enough money on the table.

BigReg · Nov 17, 2009

bladerunner said: ↑

Hes as black as it gets but when people mention his race they say hes latin they dont say hes black.

I didnt made these rules im just stating what everyone does.
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That's nice, but Latin IS NOT A RACE.

dangerousity · Nov 17, 2009

BigReg said: ↑

That was a good win for Pac. However, that guy wasn't all that slick, and didn't have an American style of fighting. Besides, Pac wasn't well known back then, he didn't have the clout to go around turning down title fights.

Campbell beat Diaz relatively easily. He did so a week before Pac fought Marquez. So no, Cambell didn't have a fight schedled. Also Diaz, needed a gift to to beat a washed up Morales in his previous fight.

If Soto had beat Guzman, he would've fought Pac. After Guzamn won, they simply acted like Guzman didn't exist. So the small window excuse is bogus. Yeah, Diaz had a belt. So what, Campbell had 3.
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Soto is under Top Rank, so yea he probably would have fought him, Arum likes to keep the money in the family.

bladerunner · Nov 17, 2009

BigReg said: ↑

That's nice, but Latin IS NOT A RACE.
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Latino,Hispanic call it what you want but in the states its considered a race.

mughalmirza786 · Nov 17, 2009

BigReg said: ↑

:thumbsupBingo, this is my point. The few fighters at the lower level that happened to be slick are not big draws. As a result, they will be avoided by guys like Pac. Mayweather is the worst stylistic matchup out there for Pac. He will fight him thought because their is enough money on the table.
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And because pacquiao has the balls to fight the best. Mayweather should have been the guy to fight cotto but instead he let pacquiao do it for him.

psychopath · Nov 17, 2009

BigReg said: ↑

I'm pretty sure most people here have heard the criticisms from Campbell and his trainer that Pacquiao avoids black fighters. I never brought into this. It makes no sense to not fight someone based on their race. However, a fighter's style is very important when coming to match making. Any fighter can be beat if they go up against the wrong style. As such, fighters(especially top level fighters with clout) will routinely avoid styles that will trouble them.

For Pacquiao, the style that will give him the most trouble are boxers, particularly slick boxers that with a good defense. Pacquiao's people will not put him in there with that type of fighter unless there is a high demand for the fight and subsequently, a lot of money on the table. There are 3 good boxers that Pacquiao faced in his career that I can think of; Morales, Barrera, and Marquez. Two of those guys gave Pac trouble and all of them are typical Mexican fighters in the sense that they posses a ton of heart and skill but are prone to be drawn into brawls and tend to neglect defense. They are not exactly slick and their lack of defense and willingness to brawl falls right into Pac's strenghts.

So how do black fighters fit into the equation? Simple, slick boxers with a respect for defense are typically black, and are typically trained in the U.S. Now there haven't been many black fighters that Pac could have faced in his career. The few that he could've faced, his team elected not to put him in there with them. The winner of Guzman/Soto was supposed to fight Pac. Guzman won, Arum said he was boring and they passed on the fight. Pac went up to 135 and skipped right past Campbell who had 3 belts and fought straight ahead, no defense, David Diaz. After that he faced Hoya(no defense, no right hand) no problem there. Then Hatton(no defense, no right hand) no real problem there. Next, Mosley offered to go all the way down to 140 to fight Pac. This offer was of course turned down and Pac fought Cotto instead(no defense, no right hand), understandable.

As of now, there are no more brawlers and/or one handed defensively challenged fighters for Pac to take on. Pac is a great fighter and he has proven as much througout his career. However, he will have to do something he has never done before, take on one of those slick boxers that his team steered him away from his entire career. Some of the top fighters at 140 are Peterson, Bradley, and Alexander. At 147 you have Mosley, Williams, Berto, and Mayweather. It looks like Mayweather is the guy he'll have to face next. Unfortunately, Mayweather is the slickest out of all these guys and posses the best defense. It's a big challenge for Pac. Pac has a lot of heart though and he's up for it. After all he's accomplished, he still has the chance to do something he's never done before and raise his legacy even higher.

Keep in mind, I AM NOT SAYING PAC AVOIDS BLACK FIGHTERS. I'm saying that his team has kept him away from those relatively slick type boxers. It just so happens that many of them are black.
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Make it simple . . . his team wisen up and didn't make Pac took unnecessary risks. Stature and money is the main consideration.

Where is Guzman before and where is Guzman now? Even Soto who is also an Arum Boy didn't get a crack at Pacquiao. Team Pac opted to get a crack at another divisional title which is a good move.

Why would Pac fight Peterson , Alexander or Bradley now? Just to disprove nuisance allegations that he is avoiding black fighters? Do you realize the risks compare to what is to be gained?

. . . bottom line there's no black fighter that were considered better options that Diaz, Hatton, DLH and Cotto in terms of Stature and money. :deal

BigReg · Nov 17, 2009

bladerunner said: ↑

Latino,Hispanic call it what you want but in the states its considered a race.
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You are wrong again. Go look at the latest U.S Census. Under race, Latino and Hispanic are not a category.

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