Pacquiao is one of the most technically sound boxers in the game.

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by PH|LLA, Mar 29, 2008.


  1. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    This is a long ass post so bear with me. At first this post was about something else. There was a thread that was brought up after Pac vs JMM II where people said an investigation should be launched because one of the judges gave the 12th round to Pacquiao. I remembered that when I watched the fight I also scored it clearly for JMM so I decided to go back and watch that round carefully since I just TIVO'd the fight on a replay.

    It ended up taking me over 45 minutes to rewatch this one round. I watched every single exchange where punches landed at 1/15 slowmo, sometimes more than once. What I realised while doing this is that people who think Pacquiao has no skills and is 1-dimensional are on crack. Some people keep pushing this down our throats but its simply bull****.

    Anyways below is the recap of the 12th and final round. Which in the end turned out to be a real tossup round between two extremely highly skilled boxers. The fact that they can still put out this kind of effort in the 12th is mind boggling.

    So this is a slow mo description of all the significant exchanges in the round. Basically all the instances where significant punches landed and what those punches were. I really put alot of time and effort into it and I think that not only Pacquiao and MArquez fans will be able to enjoy it, but also any hardcore boxing fans.

    2:33 Pacquiao leads in with a hard jab that snaps Marquez' head back. Marquez counters with a nice left hook/uppercut but misses as Pac leans back.

    2:28 Marquez lands a nice right hand flush on Pacquiao behind a light jab to the body, Pacquiao tried to counter the jab with a right hook so when he lowered his right JMM caught him.

    2:22 Pacquiao seems to land a big straight left to the body. You can hear the sound and it seems it landed under Marquez' guard but the camera angle is bad. There's a small chance it was blocked.

    2:17 Marquez throws a 5 punch combo, the first 3 are blocked, but he ends it with a left hook to the body and a left uppercut that land clean.

    Lampley says "Straight right hands from Marquez, two of them". Lampley really kissed Marquez' ass throughout the 12th round, which could very well have affected most people's scores.

    1:58 Pacquiao throws a 5 punch combo, only the 2nd punch lands, a staight left to the body.

    1:44 Marquez throws a lead right hand, Pacquiao ducks under it and lands a straight left to the body that lands. Marquez follows up with a short left uppercut to the body which lands as Pacquiao lands a big counter overhand left. Marquez then throws 2 right hands but both are blocked.
    Lampley says "Good uppercut by Marquez, sets up a straight right hand" though Pacquiao clearly got the best of the exchange.

    1:31 Marquez lunges with a jab that misses, and Pacquiao misses a counter right hook. Pacquiao comes back with a jab that misses, Marquez counters with a left hook followed by a straight right but both are cleanly blocked. They step back a little. Marquez comes in with a lead right hand followed by left uppercut which both land but not very flush. Marquez followed up those 2 punches with another right hand which hits the top Pacquiao's head just as Pacquiao counters with a short left cross which lands flush and clearly hurts Marquez.
    the whole encounter lasted 4 seconds.
    Lampley says "Solid shots by marquez and he ducks Manny Pacquiao's left"

    1:24 Inside fighting. PAC throws 2 short left uppercuts. The first one is partially blocked. The second one lands flush as Marquez lands a counter right hand. Then Pacquiao steps back and lands a big right hook.

    1:21 Pacqiuao throws a 1-2 Marquez ducks under it. Pacquiao throws a short right uppercut that lands but no damage. Marquez counters with a big left hook that lands.
    Lampley says "Good left hand by Marquez."

    1:18 Pacquiao jabs, feints the left hand. Marquez bites and counters with a left hookercut which PAC avoids and then PAC lands a hard jab over it. Then Pacquiao misses a huge overhand left but lands another jab that snaps Marquez' head back.
    Lampley says "Now Pacquiao lands a solid shot but up to this point Marquez is winning the round."

    1:06 Marquez throws a 1-2. Pacquiao blocks the jab and gets caught flush by the right hand and his head snaps back.


    0:59 Pacquiao throws a 1-2 which Marquez blocks, he follows up his 1-2 with a right cross that lands as Marquez lands a counter left uppercut at the same time.

    0:57 This exchange is simply too beautiful. Best of the entire round. Marquez throws a lead right which Pacquiao side steps. Then Pacquiao counters with a short right hook to the body which does little damage followed by a big left cross that Marquez ducks under and then a short right uppercut pops Marquez' head up. PAC follows up with a left but Marquez ducks under it and throws a big overhand right that Pacquiao ducks under himself and then Pac counters with a big overhand left of his own that lands as Marquez misses with a left uppercut. Marquez takes the punch and counters with another overhand right which lands as Pacquiao is moving back.
    If you're a boxing purist, then watching this in slow mo will make you come in your pants. The whole thing lasts 3 seconds.

    :52 Marquez does something simply beautiful here. He feints with the jab, PAC bites and counters with the right hook. Marquez blocks the hook with his left and lands a nice right uppercut which lands flush. Marquez follows up with a left uppercut but Pacquiao blocks it and then PAC lands a big counter left flush as Marquez misses with the followup overhand right.

    :48 something is going on but its comepletely blocked by the ref bad camera angle

    :42 Marquez throws a jab but Pacquiao has his left foot on the outside so he dodges the jab and times Marquez with a big lead left almost at the same time and lands flush. Beautiful

    :25 Marquez leads with a 4 punch combo. Left uppercut which is blocked, right lands over it, then left uppercut and right hand again but both blocked.

    :19 In this exchange noone lands any punches but i have to describe it cause its too amazing. Pacquiao gets his foot on the outside of Marquez and throws a jab. Marquez leans back onto his backfoot, avoids the jab, moves his front foot from the inside to the outside. Then JMM throws 1-2. Pacquiao blocks the jab with his right hand and turns his left shoulder to block the right.

    :16 Pacquiao lands a solid jab and follows up with a left but MArquez ducks under it and puches Pacquiao back with his own left.

    :10 Marquez lands a nice snappy jab

    :08 Pacquiao leads with a left to the body. Marquez kind of ducks and blocks it. Pacquiao follows up with a right to the top of JMM's head. JMM then pulls up and as Pacquiao lands a left uppercut to JMM's chest which doesn't seem to do much damage, JMM lands a big overhand right that pushes PAC back.

    :06 PAC lands a big jab that snaps Marquez' head back, follows up with a left that Marquez ducks under. Then as Marquez comes back with a counter overhand right, Pacquiao lands a right cross and steps back out of range.

    :04 Marquez throws a 1-2 but Pac steps back out of range and counters with a right hook and a left hand which both land flush.

    End of an epic fight.

    I hope some of you enjoyed this post. I don't know if you can tell that as the round goes on and on I get more and more into it. Really I feel like i could watch this entire fight in slowmo and it would be a day well spent. :lol:
     
  2. acb

    acb De Camaguey... Gavilan Full Member

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    People who say that he is one dimensional are wrong.

    But he does have technical flaws. He can't fight off the back foot. He is often off balance after throwing the straight left, although this has been improved.
     
  3. Koa

    Koa Boxing Addict Full Member

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    See the bias in your post? You don't note how Marquez takes advantage of foot positioning, punch sequences and counters a fighter who is considerably faster than himself, which takes much more than gifts earned in the gym and via genetics.

    Pac is extremely solid technically. But he is one of those fighters with so many natural gifts, that his particular style is taylor made for himself.. Few fighters could keep up with the pace required to maintain his in and out footwork, handspeed, and overall movement.

    He's well rounded technically though. What is great about Pac's style is that he can maintain a very strong offense, and due to speed and movement is difficult to time and counter.. With this sort of in and out offense, coupled with his speed, he is himself able to counter punch opponents mistakes.. If anyone is crazy enough to go head to head with him, then it becomes a war which he is very capable of winning.. Few had the offensive prowess to keep up with him. Eric Morales had the style to beat Pac in his victory over him, but his body, and lack of conditioning are what defeated Morales in his losses to Pac. As conditioning and speed are the two things Morales seemed to lose, those are two categories Pac has maintained and improved upon..

    Technically, he is sound. But is he masterful in any aspect?

    What we have in Marquez is an extremely cerebral fighter, who is a master counter puncher. He really is the epitome/ product of the best things Nacho has to teach fighters.. Nacho being a legendary trainer, Marquez being a virtual prodigy of his school of style, is extremely under-appreciated..

    As unique as Pac's natural abilities are.. We have an even more unique fighter in Marquez. As I doubt we will ever see another fighter quite like him.
     
  4. See Me Flow

    See Me Flow The Pharaoh of Boxing Full Member

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    As much as I like Pacman I wouldn't say he's one of the most "technically" sounds guys out there. Pac is a 'fighter,' a gun slinger, in contrast to a boxer like JMM. Boxers are more technical than fighters like Pac.
     
  5. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    i did make mention of Marquez's footwork when it came into play, as in one of the examples (i think 0:19 or around there). As for footwork the fact is that in this fight Pacquiao more often than not got his foot on the outside of Marquez', or on the occasions where Marquez got his foot on the outside, Pacquiao instinctively jumps back.

    Notice that I'm not saying that Pacquiao is more technically sound that Marquez. I recognize that Marquez has the edge here. And also Marquez is better at predicting what Pacquiao is gonna throw at him than the other way around. But the edge is very slight, and Pacquiao makes up for it with fast reflexes and movement. Basically Pacquiao can recover from a mistake more than Marquez due to his athleticism.

    What I'm saying is that there are at most a handfull of fighters (a VERY small handfull) who are technically superior to Pacquiao.

    If you read the analysis I don't see where I was biased it was basically punch by punch as shown on film in flow mo.


    Please take note that i am NOT saying that Pac is technically superior to Marquez.
     
  6. huki

    huki huk huk ^_^;; Full Member

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    The 12th was not a tossup round. It takes no deep analysis to score that round and it's impossible to argue that Pac won it or was even close to winning it.

    Pac is obviously not one dimensional in the way that pressure fighters like Juarez and Valero are. But he is essentially a one dimensional boxer. He's so great and effective with that one-dimensional style though that he is capable of beating elite boxers and is an ATG. "Pacquiao is one of the most technically sound boxers in the game" is a generalized statement.. is he one of the top 100 most technically sound boxers? Yes. Is he top 10? No. Top 20? No. Pac has improved since 122, but he still faces the same problems that he used to face because of his one-dimensional style.. he just found a way to be even more effective with it while adding offensive tools and sharpening up his movement and defense.

    If Guzman-Pacquiao happened you would truly see what multidimensional and one-dimensional is.. but unfortunately it won't happen and we'll be stuck with Pac-Diaz/Casamayor/Campbell/Hatton.
     
  7. Koa

    Koa Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Have to give him credit for the countering ability he has.. But a lot of his countering ability is based on opponents making mistakes.. Not necessarily the type of countering ability Marquez has, where he can anticipate a properly thrown combination sequence, and still effectively counter..

    Pac's recent knockdown of Marquez was based on a counter punch, but was able to capitalize on Marquez' mistake of over-extending, leaving his weight on his foward foot and being countered with a short punch on the inside. It is a very good scoring knockdown, requires very good punch accuracy and timing from Pac himself, but that knockdown was scored off of a mistake by Marquez for example.. Where Marquez countering Pac has little to do with Pac making mistakes.. Pac's offense, or most dynamic boxing offenses are based on some sort of phycial prowess.. Be it handspeed, punching power, chin, height or reach advantage, movement etc.. (fighter with good punch resistance might have aspects of his offensive style that incorporates eating a punch to land his own, or be more willing to exchange)

    There is bias in the observation, as you focus purely on things Pac does well, while perhaps not noticing how Marquez is being effective.. Not necessarily on Pac's mistakes, but just based on his learned ability to counterpunch.
     
  8. sambob

    sambob Active Member Full Member

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    Pacqiao is a very skilled boxer, but he is SKILLED in his particular style. I've only really seen him fight one way, regardless of the opponent. Roach has been gradually getting him to box more, but he's still not changed much.
     
  9. dangerousity

    dangerousity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I've never seen Mike Tyson dance around the ring and sting like a bee either but the words "one dimensional" wasnt used too often in regards to him.
     
  10. DON1

    DON1 ICEMAN Full Member

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    Comon now Pacman technically gifted?? You dont even have to have real boxing knowledge to know that isn't the case. No disrespect to the writter of this post, but comon man lets get real.
     
  11. PacDbest

    PacDbest Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It should be" Pac is a Phenominal athlete & now a Technically sound boxer".
     
  12. CJLightweight

    CJLightweight Lightweight Kingpin Full Member

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    i agree, i'm not seeing much change from him..except those times where he was able to block some punches from JMM. Overall i don't think he has changed, he looks awkward at times, not your regular boxing stance but thats his style
     
  13. pelican

    pelican Guest

    i had the fight even going to the 12 th round. but i gave the final round to pac, regardless of what the commentators were saying. because, in my point of view, pac got the best of the exchanges in this rounds. he was able to land more harder shots than marqeuz while blocking and avoiding his opponents the hard counters.

    your observation is damn good. big ups!
     
  14. ralphc

    ralphc Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I agree, Marquez is one of the best boxers in the history of the sport but sadly does not get the respect he deserves. Despite his greatness, Marquez is obviously past his prime, 10 years ago Pacquiao wouldn't have hit him so easily. Pacquiao, on the other hand, is not as technically proficient as Marquez but he is fast and has an agressive crowd pleasing style. Pleasing the crowd is important, that is where the paychecks come from. :yep
     
  15. Ilesey

    Ilesey ~ Full Member

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    You're right, it was one long ass post!

    Pacman has improved under Roach but it would be a stretch to call him one of the most technically sound boxers in the game.