Pacquiao's Evolution

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by kg0208, Jul 5, 2008.


  1. CJLightweight

    CJLightweight Lightweight Kingpin Full Member

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    how about some realistic examples, like active boxers:yep

    julio diaz? edner cherry?
     
  2. Stovepipe

    Stovepipe Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I was marginally impressed by the stoppage of Diaz. He also had taken the fight out of Diaz before that. Diaz wasn't the same aggresive guy the last few rounds. A question you need to ask yourself is, do I feel lucky, no just kididng, the question is, do you think that Nate Campbell, Juan Diaz, Joan Guzman, Juan M Marquez, Julio Diaz, Katsidis and Casamoyer could have stopped David Diaz the way Pac did? How many of those guys would have taken the fight out of David and then finished him off? Now, after the fact, many will say that most of them would have, but I think its a good question because some of those guys might have won decisions and lost rounds doing so, unlike Pac.

    Do you think any of them could have performed
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    than Pac did against Diaz?

    This is important because we need to establish how legitmate of a lightweight Pac can be, and I was on the side that 135 was big trouble for him, but now I am starting to think much differently.

    Pac isn't slower at the higher weight than he has been in his last few, where he was struggling with weight, and on the other hand, his opponents are 135, and the average guy at 135 is going to be slower than the same guy at 130, meaning although Pac may be slower than when he embarked on his 130 campaign, the gap remains large because he will be fighting, generally, a slower opponent.

    I mean, my my, when did you see the speed advantage show up as much as it did vs Diaz? This could be a huge factor vs many of them at 135.
     
  3. kartog

    kartog Agent Smith Full Member

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    The power was what impressed me.
     
  4. PaoloP4P

    PaoloP4P Member Full Member

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    Contrary to what you say about Pac physically deteriorating, I actually think he's at his physical peak. The case is that he's just losing a bit of his decided physical advantages with a step up in weight and a step up in competition. Gone are the days when he can fight c-level tuneups so there is no way he could just run over people as before.

    He's not at his fastest anymore, but if you look at the overall picture, speed, strength, power, conditioning--he definitely is in his physical prime. The move at 135 was a natural. I think alot people get this idea that Pac moving up in weight that Pac is stretching himself too thin. I believe his move up in weight actually has more to do with his body growing. His body always look cut, unlike past fighters who moved up in weight and just looked fat. A natural move up in weight indicates absolute gains even if relative gains are lost, in that sense; I dont think Pac is ohysically deteriorating....not now anyways. If there were signs of him slowing down from his last couple of fights, it may have more to do with him fighting at the "unnatural" weight of 130.

    And as you mentioned, his skills are more refined--Pac will do just fine at lightweight, and hence his confidence in wanting to deal with a big welter in Hatton. He feels stronger and he has more confidence in his skills, and he would still have a decided speed advantage over any lightweight, and welters. The move to 135 was just the right move for Pac
     
  5. Sandmanl337

    Sandmanl337 Pactard Full Member

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    I think Pac will be more of a force with his refined skills.. He's still fast and has power at 135 which didn't drop at all when he moved up.. After throwing punches and combinations, he doesn't stand in front of his opponents anymore, but moves to the side and comes from a different angle.. As you have mentioned, his footwork, accuracy, and balance is much better and he uses his right a lot more, which was a big factor in the Diaz fight.. He may be slowing down slowly, but his skills are improving and I think this will help him in the 135/140 divisions.. I don't think he has left his prime yet..
     
  6. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    His speed and power are not slowing down relative to others. His speed and power are slowing down in general in comparison to himself at lower weights. He may be physically stronger, but this doesn't always equate to "power". I disagree with those who are watching Pacquiao at 135 against a very slow (we knew this before the fight) David Diaz, both in handspeed and footspeed. Pacquiao was always going to look fast in their with him. His speed at 122-130 was faster. All one has to do is do a comparison side by side. He was more explosive at lower weights, regardless of target reaction.

    Also, I think one of the main factors a boxer runs into when his body is slowing down is that he begins to have trouble maintaining his weight. Morales had this trouble and many other fighters who's bodies failed them. They couldn't stay at their natural weights because they felt sluggish and their bodies wouldn't respond. When they moved up in weight they felt better but their bodies still did the same thing over time even when in great condition. Pacquiao dominated the fight, but it is no secret he was breathing hard in the corner, not a trait of Pacquiao. Diaz does that to alot of fighters, so it's too early to tell. But Diaz wasn't hitting him as much as he does other fighters.

    As for "could the elite lightweights have beaten Diaz this badly?" Some of them yes. It's about contrast in styles. Juan Diaz wouldn't have because his style is predicated on wearing you down. Julio Diaz may have stopped David earlier because of his style. Campbell (the one that fought Juan Diaz) would have beaten David Diaz badly, probably losing no rounds, and Casamayor may very well have lost, since pressure fighters give him trouble now. (I would pick Casamayor to win by a score of 8-4, but he is terribly inconsistant at this point) All of this to say what I said earlier. It wouldn't matter a bit. It's more about styles. Pacquiao beating Diaz didn't tell us much at all about him vs elite LW's or Hatton.

    But his change in styles may help him a bit regardless of this. That is more my concern and question at this point.
     
  7. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    there is no doubt that when you fight guys like Barrera, Morales, and MArquez over and over again, you get MUCH MUCH better on the skill side. IMO p4p the Pac that fought JMM in the rematch was better than the Pac that fought JMM the first time, and so was his opponent.
     
  8. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Certainly true. I think JMM is worse physically now, but a better boxer. Pacquiao is still IMO less destructive physically, but has enhanced his physical ability by adjusting his style.
     
  9. Polymath

    Polymath Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I think Pac is in his physical prime right now; the fact he might be a little slower is more down to the fact thats he's now about 40lbs(!) heavier than when he started his career. In terms of his relative speed I think he's as quick as a lt. weight as hes ever been.

    The counterargument obv. being Pac not looking like a true concussive puncher 'vs' Diaz - however a fight or two more @135+ will be needed to accurately judge imo.
     
  10. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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    when you compare a fighters speed, you have to compare it relative to his weightclass. The pertinent questions concerning Pac's physical attributes would be: Was Pac faster compared to the average 122lb fighter then than he is compared to the average 135lb fighter now? was he more powerful? imo in terms of speed he is still about the same but in terms of power he's declined, and probably in terms of stamina as well.
     
  11. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I already said that earlier. But many of the people here are under the impression, given their responses, that he is just as fast overall not relative to the fighters he's fighting.
     
  12. chimba

    chimba Off the Somali Coast Full Member

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    IJust monitoring the thread..Ive read it all Mancini schooling Pac lol
     
  13. PaoloP4P

    PaoloP4P Member Full Member

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    It’s true that his speed is slowing down as compared to his lower weights; however, I think it’s not so much due to him slowing down physically, it’s more due to him just being bigger. I was a lot faster too when I was younger and had less muscle mass. You’re right, power doesn’t always equate to strength…but being your strongest should more or less parallel you’re physical peak. And when I say strength, it’s comprehensive…not so much how much a guy can bench press. A 29 year old MJ IMO was tons more physically imposing then the flashy athletic one that avged 37 points/game. In that sense Pac may be slower now, but he’s in his physical peak. Less explosive, slower then when he was in the lower weights…yes, but I’m sure Pac would say himself that he’s more able to absorb a punch, he doesn’t expend as much energy pushing back opponents in clinches…with just a tad of a sacrifice in the speed area. Which relatively speaking isn’t much of a sacrifice in the higher weights.

    In regards to the 29 year old MAB and EM comparisons, it’s misleading to compare those 2 slowing down as compared to the 29 yr old Pac now for the simple fact that those 2 just aren’t on the same physical level. You can argue the fact all day that they’re just as great boxers, but it’s hard to argue that they even come close to matching Pac athletically. IMO even if Pac is at his prime and there is no other way but down, the decline won’t be as fast or pronounced as EM or MAB for the simple fact that he’s just a way better athlete. And that’s saying a lot coz at this point you can say Pac has been in as many wars as those 2.

    That’s why even at this point there’s so much upside with Pac. That’s why people got so excited with his whitewashing of Diaz. Because there is no indication that Pac is on his way to a steep drop. When they speak of hatton, its more of a belief that they have more than a legit chance to beat him (not a cashout like some haters would say).At 135 not only did he showed what he could in the ring, he also looked the part. He’s still as cut as ever, no wasted weight….it’s natural. He was breathing heavy, but if you think about all the constant movement and the 90 punches per round….I think it’s amazing that he was keeping that pace for 9 rounds. It wasn’t just the punches, it was also the constant movement. To keep that up requires alotta energy and alotta conditioning.

    There really isn’t anyone at 135 that would be considered a favorite to beat Pac. IMO this is the best version of Pac, not the 122-130 version. Strength and the additional skills he’s progressively been showing. He may not get the string of highlightreel ko’s anymore but this due more to the relatively higher skill and size of the opponents he’s facing.
     
  14. PH|LLA

    PH|LLA VIP Member Full Member

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  15. kg0208

    kg0208 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    MJ was more physically imposing at 29 because he was still capable of the same explosiveness and had a more refined skill set, perhaps the most refined offensive player of his era. That is a different animal than the one we are dealing with here. He wasn't going up in weight and against different levels of competition. It's a different sport.

    Pacquiao is stronger simply because he is gaining muscle mass. But you're saying he isn't tiring? I just saw him getting tired pushing around Diaz, so I disagree. I don't believe it was about his punch output, because Pacquiao has always been a high output guy. The MAB and EM comparisons are very valid IMO. Being athletically gifted is only part of the equation. He has still been in alot of wars and while he has come out on top, due to his original lack of defense, he was getting hit a ton. I think he is slowing down. There is no way to prove this, so it is simply a agree/disagree situation.

    As for his decline being pronounced or as fast as MAB or Morales? Thats a different discussion all together. I think the thread deteriorates quickly if we get into it. I don't agree that this version is as good as the 122 version. You can't take that away from the Diaz fight. Styles are important here and Diaz was made for him. We need to see more 135 fights to make any accurate assessments of Pacquiao at this weight. The public wouldn't favor anyone over Pacquiao at 135 due to name recognition.....but I would favor the version of Campbell who defeated Diaz over him. I still favor Juan Diaz over him. But again, that is not what this thread is about.

    I find your insight interesting and thank you for the input.