Papke-Carpentier footage.

Yeah, I think I know the combo you mean. Firpo doesn't go down straight away, he holds on and turns and wrestles a bit, then falls down.
Dempsey's punches were really deep digs there, very short but you can see him drive his whole body into them. It hurts a bit even looking at it.
Firpo was one tough mofo.

 

Yes...that's the one. That hook if you watch does not leave the plane of Dempsey's shoulders. So very compact.

 

Yeah ... funny but a lot of people here will claim that Dempsey threw wide looping swings, like a barroom brawler. atsch

 

Lol...a horrible article that totally distorts reality. Just totally void of any depth or knowledge of what he is talking about.

No known historian rated Ali or Frazier mid 1972 when Nat died. First generally Historians wait until a fighters career is over or nearly over before making a strong statement. Rating a fighter in a top 10 means removing another proven ATG from the list. This can't be taken lightly and the fighter in question must show ATG abilities...Otherwise he can't be considered.

Secondly most felt Alis best was behind him...he had lost to Frazier, was in his 30's. No one envisioned he would rise as he did to become champion again and show his all time toughness in Manila in 75.

Many feel had Nat lived to see these events unfold his top 10 would have been altered.

 

If you watch the Willard fight he starts throwing such compact blows..then goes crazy when he first drops Willard. Then there is a change. It might be after the 5th kd of the first round you see Dempsey suddenly steady himself and Willard...almost like he realizes he is too wild and again starts throwing those short killer punches again. The thought that Dempsey was a wild puncher I believe comes from that minute or so in that first round where he is excited and a bit wild. Dempsey in fact was one of the most compact punchers in hwt history. This is one reason why I say he was much more akin to Louis than Marcano or Frazier. Dempsey as per Tunney was a perfect blend of boxer and puncher. This statement was very true and to the point.

 

Why quote from newspapers that werent even on the scene? The Pittsburgh Post had no correspondent present at the first, third, fourth, and sixth fights and yet you rely on those papers? Maybe because its easier to look at boxrec than actually get those papers who were there.

Greb-Loughran 1: The Philly Evening Bulletin voted for Loughran but did not give a tally of by what margin. The Public Ledger voted for Greb without giving a tally. The Philadelphia Inquirer voted for Greb and did not give a tally. The Philadelphia Record voted for Greb and said Loughran did well for the first two rounds but afterwards he was at Greb's mercy. The Evening Public Ledger voted for Greb. This was a competetive bout, as I said but a clear win for Greb. Keep in mind this is Loughran's hometown so you would think they would lean towards him yet Greb still won an overwhelming number of newspapers decisions.

Greb-Loughran 2: The Gazette Times said Greb beat Loughran decisively and Loughran did not win any rounds. Two were even the rest went to Greb. The Daily Dispatch gave Greb 8 rounds to Loughrans 2. The Pittsburgh Post said that "Philadelphian Gets Terrific Lacing in One Sided Battle" it gave Greb every round but the fourth which was even. The Pittsburgh Press said Loughran was easy for Greb. The Pittsburgh Leader said that Loughran was beaten "Decisively."

Greb-Loughran 3: New York Call said that from the fourth round to the end of the fight Greb chased Loughran and beat him with everything "from the handle of the rake to a stave yanked loose from the garden gate." The Post gave it to Greb without giving a tally of rounds. The Brooklyn Daily Eagle said Greb won a one sided bout. The New York Evening Telegram gave it Greb without a tally saying it was an uninteresting fight where Greb was bad and Loughran was worse (George Underwood who wrote the article was not a fan of Grebs). The Brooklyn Standard Union said Greb was the victor by "a hundred fistic miles." The New York Tribune gave Loughran only two rounds. The New York Times gave Loughran only three rounds and said Greb won easily. The New York Sun said Greb "did not have much trouble defending his title against" Lougran and that he "had nearly all of the fifteen rounds in his favor." (The author of this story Fred Keats was also a big Greb hater yet still had Greb winning in one sided fashion). The Newark Star Eagle said Greb won decisively. The New York Daily News said Greb gave Loughran a beating and only gave Loughran 2 rounds.

Greb-Loughran 4: The Boston Post gave Greb four rounds of the ten and didnt give a tally for Loughran. The Boston American said Greb "was robbed" giving him 7 of the 10 rounds and stating the judges were influenced by the rooting of the fans. Lawrence Sweeney of the Globe did not provide his own personal opinion of the the decision but stated that Greb led throughout, forced the fighting, threw more punches, and landed harder. The Boston Advertiser did not go into much detail of the bout saying primarily that Loughran met Greb's rushes with well timed counters. The Boston Herald thought Loughran won clearly. The Boston Traveler said that Loughran won in the last three rounds with a rally that was described by most of the other papers.

Greb-Loughran 5: The Pittsburgh Post said Greb gave Loughran a lacing. Greb won five rounds with two even and three to Loughran but his margin of victory in the fourth and tenth was so big that he his victory was unquestionable. At one point Loughran was backed into a corner and refused to fight despite Greb's motioning to him. The Pittsburgh Gazette-Times said that Greb made Loughran look so foolish that Loughran was more than willing to quit when the final bell rang. It said Tommy didnt win a round. Greb had 8 and two were even. The Pittsburgh Press stated that by the end of the second round Greb had shown enough mastery over Loughran to convince the audience that the only way Loughran could win would be if the roof fell in on Greb.

Greb-Loughran 6: The Philadelphia Evening Bulletin said that Greb looked to be a winner after the tenth round. One judge gave the fight to Greb, the other judge and the referee called it a draw. The Philadelphia Inquirer said one judge, Jack Kelly (father of the famous Grace Kelly) ruled Loughran won, while the other judge gave it to Greb and the ref called it a draw. The Inquirer felt that Greb won but that his tactics caused the draw and could have gotten him DQd. The Philadelphia Public Ledger (which was written by Frank McCracken the referee) stated that Greb should have won on his merits but his tactics caused the decision. He admitted that many felt Greb should have won.

So Greb won decisively three out of the six. He won another clear but competetive bout, lost one, and drew another that arguably could have gone his way. In no way shape or form are all of these fights close as you suggest.

 

Based on what you posted four were competitive while two were in Grebs favor decisively. I don't see how that greatly diminishes Loughrans statement that the bouts were close assuming what you posted is correct. Loughran was speaking in terms of being one of the two men in the ring actually fighting vs observers from ringside. Many times I've had sparring sessions where I felt I did very well but those watching thought otherwise and vise versa. Certainly I see no issues with Tommys comments. Here for an example is an article from 1930 that describes the first bout which you call one sided. The author attended the fight obviously......


By this time Loughran felt the need of a rest. He went to Wildwood, New Jersey, where he idled around in the sand and swam and played ball and had a swell time. While he was relaxing, Joe Smith was on the job. The outdoor season was in full swing, and Joe, capitalizing the reputation Loughran had made at the Arena during the winter, began building up some matches.

Taylor and Gunnis had practically a monopoly on the outdoor game in Philadelphia. They were well disposed toward Loughran. They recognized in him a great attraction. The only point that remained was who to pit against him. There were a number of outstanding figures. Taylor and Gunnis staged their shows in the Philadelphia National League Ball Park, and with the huge seating capacity, even though the price of ringside seats was only five dollars, they were able to offer high remuneration to boxers of national reputation.

Finally, they settled on Harry Greb, the Pittsburgh Windmill, middleweight champion of the world, as the man to oppose Loughran in his first open air fight.

Most observers believed Joe Smith was making a mistake in accepting Greb as an opponent for his protege. They said he was rushing the boy too fast; that it was silly to believe a nineteen year-old kid could hold his own with that marvelous bit of fighting machinery. But Joe kept his own councel, and Tommy only grinned when he read these protests. Rushing him, eh? He had been working and building for a long time toward the spot he had now reached.

They met in the Phillies Ball Park before one of the greatest crowds of the season--this handsome nineteen-year-old boy and the roughest toughest mauler in the ring. Harry Greb took the match lightly enough. There was no reason for him to fear this kid who had no more than a local reputation. He seemed blase, almost bored.

Tom, on the other hand, understood exactly what he was up against and just how much it would mean for him to win. If he could outpoint the Pittsburgh Windmill, his fame would spread across the country. He would be set. Though his reputation was still comparatively small while Greb's was a glittering thing, bolstered by many brilliant victories, Loughran felt he would beat the champion.

Of course, no decisions were rendered in Pennsylvania at that time. So, even if he did outpoint Greb, there would be no title attached to his victory. But the prestige would be there, nevertheless. Anyone who could trim Harry Greb would be riding the crest of the pugilistic wave.

The crowd, of course, was solidly pro Loughran. The St. Monica's boy's band had come up from South Philadelphia to toot away at popular tunes and cheer for their young idol. I remember a good-looking girl at the ringside, who stood through every round and cheered hysterically for Tommy.

As Greb returned to his corner at the end of each round, he would stop and look at the girl in good-natured amazement. They certainly did think a lot of Tommy Loughran in his home town.

Through the eight fast, bitterly fought rounds, the youngster learned a lot about the art of fighting. Greb, with uncanny speed and the most unorthodox style ever seen in the ring, hit and slapped and punched from every angle. He never stopped for an instant. Yet the fierce flurries and rains of blows, the back-handing and hitting on the break never for an instant upset Tommy or forced him onto bad moves. He boxed cooly and in his usual style. His left hand worked like a piston; his right swept into the body in an attempt to slow Greb with punishment under the heart. But no matter what he did, the champion's speed and experience and roughness were just a bit too much for him. Greb won by a shade, but all the praise went to the kid who had given him such a hard battle.

Loughran was well satisfied with his showing. Of course, he didn't believe he had had any the worst of it. The fight was so close that his viewpoint is readily understandable, but, no matter what the decision of the boxing writers, everyone agreed that it was a marvelous exhibition for a youngster with so little fistic background.

Sounds like a close bout to me and to this eye witness.

 

Round by round. Again this bout does not appear one sided. Loughran seemed in control the first five rounds while Greb came on mid to late and Both closed strongly.

Jan 31, 1923

Loughran Sets Fast Pace In Early Sessions, but Greb Makes Strong Rally.

Greb and Loughran were pelted with a flurry of applause as they entered the ring at Madison Square Garden last night. Gene Tunney, Larry Goldberg and Johnny Dundee were introduced before the bout started. Kid McPartland was the referee. It was announced that both Loughran and Greb weighed 166 pounds. The story of the fight by rounds follows:

FIRST ROUND

Greb opened with a typical rush. He lashed out with rights and lefts for the face without direction. The champion's rush flustered Loughran for a time, but the Quaker City boxer quickly started pecking with a left jab which had Greb's head bobbing. Greb was kept at bay with Loughran's stiff left jabs. The champion kept tearing in , but was wild while Loughran countered cleverly. At close quarters Loughran worked both hands to the body. Greb sought to work in the clinches, but his attack was checked by Loughran.

_______________________

SECOND ROUND

Greb rushed and was met with a left jab to the face. They clinched. Greb was short with a right for the face and took a stiff left jab in return. In the clinches Loughran held against attack. A left jab drew the blood from Greb's mouth. Greb rushed and landed a right to the face and body. Loughran hooked a left to the face just before the bell.

_______________________

THIRD ROUND

They exchanged left jabs. Greb rushed wildly about the ring in an effort to drive in a godd punch. Greb landed a right to the jaw but missed repeatedly as he continued his furious assault. After sparring for a while Greb landed a right to the jaw and Loughran shot a right uppercut to the chin. Loughran turned Greb half way round with a right to the jaw. Loughran landed to the jaw and followed with left and rights to the jaw.

_______________________

FOURTH ROUND

Loughran hooked a left to the jaw and then drove a left and right to the body. Greb started roughing Loughran at close quarters. In the clinches Loughran pumped his right to the body. The crowd booed Greb for using his head in the clinches. Greb opened a cut over Loughrans left eye with a wild right. They exchanged rights and lefts to the body in a mix-up near the bell.

_______________________

FIFTH ROUND

Loughran landed several light lefts and they clinched. Greb rushed continually, but was wild. Greb was warned for using his head in close quarters. Greb landed a left hook to the face. Greb hooked a left to the body. Loughran drove a right to the heart as Greb came in. After sparring for awhile Loughran drove another right to the heart. They were clinched at the bell.

_______________________

SIXTH ROUND

Loughran landed several light lefts to the face and then drove a right to the jaw. Loughran jabbed a left to the face and drove a right to the body. Greb repeatedly rushed Loughran to the ropes, but did not land a clean punch. Loughran made no effort to take the offensive. They were clinched at the bell and the crowd was voicing its disaproval.

_______________________

SEVENTH ROUND

Greb rushed, landing a left to the stomach and face. They exchanged rights to the body. Greb uppercut with a wild right to the chin which drew the blood from Loughran's mouth. At close quarters Greb did all the work. loughran drove a left and right to the body. Both missed with rights for the jaw. They were sparring at the bell.

_______________________

EIGHTH ROUND

Greb rushed his rival and they clinched without either striking a damaging blow. Greb was warned for using his head at close quarters. They exchanged rights to the stomach. Greb drove Loughran to the ropes under a shower of rights and lefts to the face. Greb hooked a left to the stomach. Loughran drove a right and left to the jaw and took a left to the stomach in return just before the bell.

_______________________

NINTH ROUND

Greb pounded the face and body with a right at close quarters. Loughran landed several jabs and then drove a right to the jaw. They exchanged rights to the body. Greb roughed Loughran in the clinches. The champion was warned again for using his head. Loughran drove a hard right to the body. They exchanged lefts to the face at the bell.

_______________________

TENTH ROUND

Greb drove Loughran about the ring with lefts and rights to the body and face. A right to the ribs almost floored Loughran. Greb carried a furious pace in driving home lefts and rights to the body and jaw which made Loughran hold,. Loughran drove a right to the jaw as Greb rushed in. In a clinch they exchanged rights to the body. Greb hooked a left to the body which made Loughran gasp. Greb forced Loughran around the ring at the bell.

_______________________

ELEVENTH ROUND

Greb rushed his rival about the ring and landed two solid rights to the jaw. They exchanged rights to the body. Greb worked his right to the body and face at close quarters. Loughran uppercut a right to the face, but took three solid lefts to the stomach in return. They were clinched at the bell.

_______________________

TWELFTH ROUND

The boxers clinched repeatedly at the start of this round. Greb drove his right to the face and body at close quarters. Greb twice hooked his left to the stomach and then drove his left and right to the face and Loughran pounded the body with rights and lefts. Loughran drove a right to the heart at the bell.

_______________________

THIRTEENTH ROUND

Greb sent Loughrans head back with a left in a clinch. At close quarters Greb worked lefts and rights to the stomach. Greb twice hooked his left to the wind. Greb leaped in with another left hook that made Loughran gasp. Loughran bombarded the body with lefts and rights as Greb tore in. Greb missed with a left and right for the face and took a right to the body. Greb rushed his rival to the ropes and landed a left to the face at the bell.

_______________________

FOURTEENTH ROUND

Loughran was warned for hitting low with the right, but the crowd hissed the warning. The boxers fought furiously, exchanging rights and lefts to the body in spirited mix-ups. Loughran drove his left and right to the body, while Greb swung with both hands to the face or body. Greb almost doubled Loughran up with a left hook to the body. Greb drove a left and right to the jaw. Loughran opened up a two-handed attack to the body at the bell.

_______________________

FIFTEENTH ROUND

The men shook hands. Greb drove a left hook to the wind and they clinched. Loughran drove a right to the body. As Greb tore in Loughran landed lefts and rights to the body. They exchanged left hooks to the wind. Greb drove a left and right to the jaw, but took a left and right to the body in return. Loughran tore in and landed several hard left and rights to the body. Loughran caught Greb coming in with a left and right to the jaw. Loughran drove a right to the jaw just before the final bell.

 

Their 10 round bout in 1923

The bout was supposed to be for Greb’s middleweight title, but the champion showed up eight pounds over the 160 pound weight limit and Loughran was eight and a half pounds too heavy.

Tunney had exposed that Greb was susceptible to body shots. Loughran saw that attack and copied it for his Christmas day bout with Greb, giving him trouble throughout the fight. Regis M. Welsh, who covered the bout, noted that Greb seemed to be losing a step as fighter.

Yet, Welsh was most critical of Loughran’s seemingly lack of a fighting heart. He wrote that Loughran did not attack Greb with the relentlessness needed to win nor did he fight his way out of tough situations. It was most apparent in the ninth round when Greb had Loughran in a corner raining punches down on him. Loughran would not fight back and the referee would not stop the fight, so Greb backed away, dropped his hands, and invited Loughran out of the corner. The crowd laughed and Loughran offered his hand. As Welsh put it, “the affair, for the moment, became a lovely Christmas party.”

In the end, Greb won a 10-round decision. While the referee’s round scoring was not announced, Welsh gave Greb five rounds and scored two rounds even.

So the score of 5-3-2 indicates a competitive bout.

 

Yes, anyone can quote HarryGreb.com and Boxrec.com. The article you quote from the New York Times above which gives a round by round account doesnt detract from the fact that the Times gave Loughran only three rounds. I also like how you quote the Post, which i already quoted, but leave out any context which would show Greb won handily and completely ignore what the other papers in Pittsburgh fought. Your account written in eight full years after the fight means exactly what? Nothing. It doesnt even diverge from what I have posted about that fight, it admits that Greb won it in the eyes of the experts present.

 

Not disputing who won what. You laughed at Loughrans comments. I think the record shows their series was a close one.

 

Dempsey got great leverage on big oafs with lousy movement and footwork, no doubt. He had more problems with the smaller, more shifty opponents. Tommy Gibbons said that Miske his as hard, if not harder, than Dempsey, but that probably had as much to do with Gibbons' boxing ability as it did with Dempsey's real power.

He was also one shitty boxer.

 

Wrong as usual. My father knew Tom Gibbons well while he lived in St Paul back in the 30's. Gibbons told my father Dempsey was the hardest hitter he ever faced. His punches were so hard it made him fight totally on the defensive the entire bout. Specifically he mentioned a right hand that landed on his hip bone that caused him to limp for weeks after the bout. He said it was the hardest body blow he was ever hit with.

 

If you can somehow equate Loughran winning one bout out of 6 and losing three (of the four he clearly lost) in lopsided fashion as a close series then I guess we can agree to disagree on what is close...

 

Not surprising as Gibbons spent the balance of his career fighting middleweights and light heavyweights. His resume againts legitimate heavyweight contenders is actually pretty thin if you get right down to it. That was the knock on him at the time, particularly after he lost to Greb. It was said that while he had a glossy string of knockouts in the leadup to his contendership to Dempsey he had spent the balance of that time fighting stiffs out in the sticks in order to pad his record.