Past-prime champions who would have beaten Willard under those rules?

Corbett hadn't won a fight in 6 years, his last win was over a 165lbs Charlie Mitchell ,at 33 having his next to last fight.yet Jim beats Willard?

 

Willard wasn't viewed as the best of the white hopes. Smith, and McCarty were viewed as better. Jess had a few losses and was 33 when he faced Johnson.

Which lineal champion would have beaten Willard when they were in clear decline? As long as you separate the word decline from inactive and finished, quite a few.

Willard was ponderous, very poor on defense, and not always aggressive on offense.

 

Willard drew with McCarty. In 1913 Johnson offered to defend against McCarty in Canada for promoter Tommy Burns. Burns wouldn't have any of it because he was promoting and managing, Pelkey whom he wanted to fight McCarty.

Smith was no longer a serious contender in 1915, [ when Willard fought Johnson,] he had only managed to recently draw with 170lbs Levinsky and lost to 171lbs Dillon that year.He had been brutally kod by Langford in 3 rds just a few months earlier. He himself said he was never any good after that.

McCarty had three losses, and a draw with Joe Grim whom he outweighed by 42lbs!

Smith was only a realistic challenger for about a year, until Carpentier permanently burst his bubble.

McCarty died in 1913, so neither of those were going to be challengers in 1915 were they!

 

Willard wasn't viewed as the best of the white hopes. Smith, and McCarty were viewed as better. Jess had a few losses and was 33 when he faced Johnson.

Which lineal champion would have beaten Willard when they were in clear decline? As long as you separate the word decline from inactive and finished, quite a few.

Willard was ponderous, very poor on defense, and not always aggressive on offense.

Once again, I said both Smith and McCarty were viewed as better than Willard. Willard wasn't held in high regard. He might not rank higher than 7th in from 1910-1920:

Dempsey
Johnson
Langford
Wills
Jeanette
McVey

And like I said Smith and McCarty were viewed better, that makes Jess bottom of the top ten at best in this decade.:deal

If we objectively look at Willard, Johnson is the only top level fighter he beat. Willard has some ugly losses.

Rodel, who won 2 of his last 6 beat Willard!

Cox, who had a 1-3 known record made Willard quit

Smith, who had talent beat Willard. In fact Smith who beat Willard and Langford, and Moran. Yet Smith did not get title shot from Johnson despite the fact he knocked Johnson silly in an exhibition match in Johnson's prime in 1909.

Willard lost to McMahon who had only won 2 of his last 6 fights.

All of the above matches happened before the Johnson fight in 1915.
Willard was rather easy to hit, and was clearly beaten by some inferior fighters prior to beating Jack Johnson. From John L Sullivan to 1930, you could say either Hart or Willard were the worst champions in heavyweight boxing. Oddly enough both defeated Jack Johnson, but that is another thread

 

Johnson didnt pick Willard ,Barney Curley did ,his reasoning was Willard was huge ,durable and very strong ,over 45rds he thought he would wear down the older man and so it proved to be.
Your evaluation of the respective merits of the named fighters is totally irrelevant,[even supposing it is correct], because Johnson fought Willard in1915 . McCarty was dead and Smith was relegated to trial horse status by then.

Now do you get the point?atsch

 

You miss mine. Once again Willard was not viewed as good as Smith or McCarty.:hi:

Johnson as champion could have fought either when Smith was in good working order, or when McCarty was alive if he wanted too but fought lesser guys like Ross and Flynn. :deal

My points on Willard losing to no names and fighters on losing streaks prior to his shot to Johnson is valid. Willard was not that great. He was just around at the right point in time. That's the guy Johnson lost to.

 

Johnson offered to defend against McCarty in 1913 his offer was turned down.Here is my post from2012 detailing the offer and the cirumstances leading up to it.


"As classic posters will know Luther McCarty collapsed in the first round of a fight with Arthur Pelkey ,whilst McCarty was defending his White Heavyweight Championship.

Reports indicate that Pelkey did not even land a significant blow on McCarty,and that the Cowboy died as a result of either injuries sustained during his previous fight with Frank Moran ,or from falling from a horse.

The original opponent of McCarty was to have been Tommy Burns, who had offered Luther $10,000 win ,lose ,or draw to come to Calgary and defend his synthetic title.
Its likely that Burns never had any intention of facing McCarty and was just drumming up publicity, this seems to have been confirmed when he abruptly pulled out of the fight and announced his protege Arthur Pelkey would instead challenge McCarty. Burns not only promoted Pelkey he had an interest in the local Stadium.
At this point the real heavyweight champion Jack Johnson , on his uppers in France, declared he would be willing to come to Calgary and defend his title against McCarty.
Burns ,who had now taken over the promotional reins of the fight, gave an interview in the Calgary Daily Herald . He grandly dismissed Johnson's offer with the statement.

"There is absolutely no reason why I should make this match,Johnson has not conducted himself in a gentlemanly manner at all since gaining the title,and,now that I am a match maker I am only putting on matches which are between men of good character and clean living fellows."

Of course, were the fight to have gone ahead Pelkey, Burns meal ticket, would have been left out in the cold and Burns with him.
I thought it was interesting that contrary to what some posters state ,the 35 years old Johnson was prepared to take on the 21years old White Heavyweight Champion who was coming off decent wins over Moran,Flynn x2 Palzer and Kaufmann. But was rejected by the erstwhile promoter [Burns].

Instead the boxing world got this."

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And ,moments later,this.

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Willard was seen as a novice when Smith beat him,see below.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1913-05-21/ed-1/seq-8/

The consensus was that in a rematch Willard would win.see below

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1913-05-22/ed-1/seq-8/

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Smith was never anxious to challenge Johnson and changed the subject when he was asked about it in London stating ,"Johnson will wait and the longer he waits the better". Smith lost to 19years old Carpentier, in1913 Carp, who at 170lbs was conceding 12 lbs to him floored him for a long count . Why would Johnson avoid Smith?

 

I've provided newspaper articles that state Willard would have been favourite in a rematch with Smith .Willard also drew with McCarty,when both had comparable experience.

The promoters felt that Willard stood the best chance against Johnson over a marathon fight because of his size,strength ,and durability.

There isn't much more anyone can say to illustrate these points and given that you will ignore them, it's really a futile exercise.

 

Who said Willard was the best of the white hopes? No historian I can recall, and the record clearly shows why. He lost too often to no-names, quit, and was in fact beaten by Smith.

Keep in mind McCarty died very young. I think he was only 21, and had plenty of upside left to be filled. Willard was 33 for Johnson, and was a good as he was going to get.

By 1915 perhaps Smith had seen better days, but he did in fact clock Johnson in a 4 rd ex match in 1909 and would have been viewed as a much better fight than say Ross, or Flynn for sure.

 

I know you have problems with the English language so I'll keep this simple.
Tony Ross fought Jack Johnson on the 30th of June1909.

Gunboat Smith had his first official professional fight on the 29th of September 1909..
Can you absorb this? And stop making a complete ass of yourself .

It's so regular and predictable, its no longer entertaining.



You keep trotting out this knockdown of Johnson in a sparring session.Smith himself said ,in a 1972 taped interview he put Johnson halfway through the ropes NOT ON THE DECK.



Do you believe that every sparring partner that knocks down his world champion employer is entitled to a title shot ?

A simple yes or no will suffice.Groundhog