Patterson is greater than Tyson

Actually I wasn't necessarily saying that he was better than Tyson either. I just had to say that in Floyd's defense. I think they're close enough in their ATG-ness that I will have respect for either opinion. I have objections to either man ranking higher than the other. For instance, I have loads of respect for the way Tyson unified the title, and had a very long and impressive reign where he beat lots of ATGs, he defeated Ruddock twice after losing the title and won the title legitimately after getting out of prison. He was also a somewhat unorthodox fighter and he was stronger than Floyd. I'm not esp. fond of Floyd's title reigns, although he won them in a legitimate manner. Floyd had great careers before and after though, and like was said, established a reputation for getting up. I personally have them even as ATGs, but looking solely at their championship reigns, I would have to say Tyson.

 

This might sound different, but I actually had to heavily debate putting Patterson over Norton on my list of top 20 ATGs (both were on the lower end, despite Patterson winning the title twice).

Being that Floyd never beat an Ali (nor gave the fight of his life to any fighter approaching a prime Larry Holmes) made such a rating a bit of a conundrum to me.

 

Although I would have to rate Floyd higher in accomplishments than Norton, I actually think Norton would beat him.

 

But Floyd lost 4 of those fights and the title, while Tyson lost 0 on his run, captured and retained the title, and cleaned out the division.

Except Rademacher, Harris, McNeeley and London were allowed to fight for his title. When Tyson was fighting the likes of Reggie Gross, it was on the way to a belt. Different context.

And for what it's worth, I'd take Berbick over Ingo.

 

You're an idiot.Tyson is the youngest heavyweight world champion he was only 20 years old..

 

Of course Mike would have won a fight between the two but Floyd didn't :
Go to jail for ****
Settle three other sexual assault cases out of court
Mutilate an opponent by biting him, ( Because he was frightened of him )
Attack an opponent at a press conference, biting his leg, ( Because he was frightened of him )
Have chronic addiction issues with alcohol and drugs
Lose to British and even club level Fighters
Wind up broke
Etc....etc.....
Floyd was a far better Champion, because he carried himself like one, and a far better man.

 

Patterson had the advantage of Cus being there throughout his title reign, wheras Tyson didn't.

I would put Tyson as the greater, but do wonder if he would not have fragmented to the degree he did if had the wise counsel of Cus when the turbulent times arose.

 

Who would you put forth as these lots of ATG's?

Tyson had an often underrated run for sure. I'm not sure it involved beating lots of ATG's but might be enlightened here Will.

 

I'm still undecided but a couple of things to consider:

-Patterson remained relevant for a very long stretch after losing his title. He did very well in the vacant heavyweight tournament and some argue he was robbed and could have been the 1st 3x champ. Tyson fell off like a truck going down an icy hill in neutral after he lost his titles and stopped being relevant at the elite level after his back to back defeats to Holyfield.

-on that same note, Patterson took care of himself much better and remained competitive with skilled men much younger up until his last fight. Tyson's athleticism and skill eroded very quickly and he was struggling with D level fighters toward the end. You could argue that this implies Tyson relied more on his athleticism and power (which faded the older he got) than his ring IQ and technique.

-while Tyson blazed a trail on his way to the title demolishing everyone in front of him, some of the best opponents available were past their prime (Holmes, Tillis) or had drug/consistency issues (Thomas, Biggs, Tubbs, etc). It's not Tyson's fault what condition his opponents are in, but it's worth considering. The majority of Patterson's opponents were all in shape and in their primes win lose or draw.

-People were fearing for Patterson facing Liston, including his own trainer and President Kennedy. Nobody blinked twice hearing Buster Douglas' name and the world was in an uproar when he won. This happened not once, but twice. A shopworn older Holyfield who had been in brutal wars with Bowe and looked like crap was expected to lose to Tyson but he won. It made Tyson look like quite the front runner.

-On the other hand, Tyson did face quite a few big athletic guys and frequently gave up height/reach/weigh advantages (Ruddock, Bruno, Williams, Douglas etc).

-nobody just utterly demolished their contenders as brutally and as quickly as Tyson. Patterson had tons of heart, but he did have to struggle with some guys that honestly weren't that great--even getting dropped by nobodies.

-Tyson lost his only father figure and mentor literally right when he was on the verge of achieving greatness. He was manipulated by his wife, his promoter, leeches and celebrities. It's easy to say what you would and would not have done and Tyson is to blame for some of the messed up things im his life, but you can't go the opposite extreme and put it all on him either. Patterson had a difficult youth but was far more stable, had successful relationships, and got the most out of Cus. However, once again to play devil's advocate, Patterson did split with Cus of his own free will and proved he could win some big fights without him and got tired of being protected from some of the better contenders so props to him.

-Tyson definitely had better defense and power and was the better finisher. Patterson was more well rounded and could box and slug with far better stamina.

 

Well, okay, maybe ATGs is going a bit far, but we'll call them the best of their decades, which is pretty good for both.
Patterson:
Tommy Jackson (2x)
Archie Moore
Ingemar Johansson (2x)
Eddie Machen
George Chuvalo
Henry Cooper
Jerry Quarry (1x, imo of course, but most thought he won both)
Jimmy Ellis (once again, imo)
Oscar Bonavena

Okay, maybe not lots, but several.

Tyson:
James Tillis
Trevor Berbick
James Smith
Pinklon Thomas
Tony Tucker
Tyrell Biggs
Larry Holmes
Tony Tubbs
Michael Spinks
Frank Bruno (2x)
Carl Williams
Razor Ruddock (2x)

That is a lot!

 

The argument that you might get from the Tyson fans is that Mike was past his prime at 23, and that he did not have Cus or Kevin Rooney, many great fighters sometimes change management, that is the fight game. You either know how to fight or you do not, Ali rarely listened to Dundee, but that is what you might hear.

 

Holmes said that after you've been fighting at a championship level long enough, you only need a trainer to remind to do specific things in a corner. The need for him on a holistic level fades the longer you're champion. Not sure how much truth there is to that, it could have been true only for him.

 

Floyd Patterson was a better champion, his title reigns were, Nov 30 1956- June 26 1959, then June 20 1960-Sept 26 1962. He carried himself as a true professional, a good athlete and a mature man. I really enjoyed watching him fight, his interviews, he was very Articulate, he was also very intelligent. He also had bravery on his side. Tyson though a very hard puncher did lack maturity, that a professional athlete needs, people, especially youngsters are watching your every moves. Believe it or not, Athletes are role models. Liston though in the young George Foreman and Mike Tyson mold was not one. Do you want your child to grow up to assault women? Or do you want your child to grow up and break legs for the underworld? Or do you want your child to grow up with a scowl on his face, walking around with violent dogs, that are ready to bite reporters like Foreman's did in 1974. Floyd was a much quicker faster fighter, he did not need Cus D Amato for the rest of his boxing career, Cus a very capable trainer, but not a God of some sort, he happened to train very talented fighters. Both fought the best of their respective era's. I am very truthful in my opinion, i will not bend or flip flop to satisfy anyone, but I respect everyone's opinion.

 

But if you are a grown man and have been fighting for a while, you should know what to do. You do not need someone to wipe your nose for you anymore.

 

If Patterson had stuck to 175 he’d be considered the “greater” pound for pound as he was “better” but I rank Tyson higher on my heavyweight rankings but there’s not a ton in it.