Patterson is greater than Tyson

He really should get props for that. It's impressive with fighters that never cheated themselves or the fans by coming in to a fight in sub-par condition. He always brought it.

 

Btw, Floyd don't get nearly enough credit for how mentally strong he was. Instead there are a lot of BS that he ran away from certain challengers.

 

And you get to decide who are idiotic fan boys as well as what is a legitimate Marciano victory vs a deluded pipe dream? Glad you cleared it up.

 

Hey Bokaj. Did Lennox Lewis NOT need someone like Steward, then? I understand your point about the trainers, but other factors are involved with certain fighters. Every fighter gets excused by fans, every single one. Some warranted, others not so much.

Just my 2 cents.

55-8 now...

 

I don't see Lewis, or anyone except Tyson really, get excuses because they didn't have a certain trainer. I've never seen this come up as an excuse for the McCall defeat, for example.

And the fact is that Tyson was almsot uniquely blessed in getting to work round the clock with a world class trainer since he was a teenager. So if anything it's to be seen as a rare benefit that he got years he got with Cus/Atlas/Rooney from such an early age than a hindrance that they weren't the all the way (and with the case of Rooney it was because of Tyson's own choice).

 

Really? I see people strategically place the posts where Lennox's prime years starting and ending with his win streak between both career knockout losses. I see it all the time.

Yes it was Tyson's choice to get rid of his team. But isn't that just one clear example why Tyson's decline was so rapid? I think people hold on to that because it's so clear and evident on film.

 

55-8. Your thread failed more than your mother's failed abortion.

 

Well, Steward was with him for the Rahman loss, no? So then they can't mean he was a factor for that one.

I don't think it's clear on film, but that's not the point. The point is that if he's that dependant one one trainer and then also dumb enough to fire that trainer, that diminished his greatness. A fighter's professionalism is an ability just like speed, power, durability, stamina, rings smarts etc.

 

We all can tell you need to sneak up on your hand to get laid.

I got more, failure.

 

Right, but the excuse is that Lennox didn't train properly. Didn't acclimate early enough in Africa. See what I mean?

Why does that diminish Tyson's greatness? Says who? The guy went through a lifetime's worth of deceit, at a young age, and within a few years. Then there's his prison stint. Nobody ever went through that, at least nothing that's been documented.

 

"Dayum". Psh...pud. 56-8.

 

No excuses have been made by me, i have regularly stated previously many times that Tyson did not have mental strength when the going got tough eg getting decked.

In this thread i said "Patterson had the advantage of Cus being there throughout his title reign, wheras Tyson didn't" That is a fact, Patterson himself had psychological issues which Cus helped him deal with.

I stated that "I would put Tyson as the greater, but do wonder if he would not have fragmented to the degree he did if had the wise counsel of Cus when the turbulent times arose" That is not an excuse, that is based upon fact, if you know your boxing history you will know Cus and his team got Tyson out of many 'scrapes' in his teen years.

Having a trusted and consistent team is advantageous to even most confident and mentally resilient fighter, especially if the leader of that team was the guy who for most of Tysons teen years and up until D'Amatos death was his father figure, his mentor, and boxing trainer.

I reiterate i do wonder whether Tyson would have fragmented to degree he did if Cus was around. Cus was a wise wise old head especially in the psychology dept, you gotta be damned special to have been the trainer of the 2 youngest ever Heavyweight Champions, both who had psychological issues.

I must admit Tyson is not in my list of favourite heavyweights, however just comparing him to 2 generally accepted very physically and mentally tough Heavyweight Champions namely Dempsey and Marciano, then if Tyson had retired from the sport after 9th defence of his title then he would have easily beaten both Dempsey and Marcianos number of respective continuous title defences without loss, he would have retired as undefeated Champion like Marciano, as youngest title holder ever ,and without anyone having any evidence that he had in the ring psychological issues, he would have been lauded, applauded and spoken of as truly one of the greatest.

 

At the time of this tally 56 votes Tyson is greater, 8 that Patterson is. I love Patterson and have attempted to read up and learn as much as I could about the first man to regain the heavyweight title but this thread is folly.

I did lol at “Patterson responded much better to adversity”. Like when he lost to Liston in two minutes and wore a fake beard, nose and mustache disguise that he brought, PRE FIGHT. Or the time after that where he lasted four seconds longer...

Maybe adversity outside the ring then.. Like the time he allowed people to convince him Cus wasn’t on his side or helping him so he abandoned the man who made him, (Patterson says this was his greatest regret in life).

Adversity... Tyson faced seven current or former world champions in his first thirty five fights. Everything Patterson did Tyson did better. Your bias not withstanding the forum has spoken.

 

If a man has been fighting for a while, why does he need to have an older man wipe his nose for him and hold his hand as if he were a 5 year old. So Cus left, Floyd had others in his corner during his career. Cus could not possibly help Floyd defeat Sonny Liston because he was not in there with Sonny, Floyd was. If your prime is over at age 23, then you were nothing special to begin with. i was just waiting for all the excuses on the night of Feb 11 1990 after Mike was out boxed and kayoed. If he had won, you would have thought that he parted The Red Sea. Maybe his shoes were too big, or there was a conspiracy against him. He was a talented fighter, but just a violent man, who scared people. Fans just cannot accept losing, maybe the referee had his back turned like in Pro Wrestling. Floyd was more man, he did not lose his prime at 23.

 

Tyson was not "aging" when Douglas knocked him out. He wasn't that old or shopworn when Holyfield stopped him either, and ironically Holyfield was even oldet than Tyson and had been in even more wars. You can't just gloss over the the fact Tyson never won a fight he was losing. It is completely relevant if the discussion is greatness/accomplishments.

You do have a valid point that Harris and Rademacher werent very good opponents and Floyd shouldn't have been dropped by them, but he absolutely should get credit for rematching the man who brutally stopped him in Johanson. He was dropped in the rematch too, and rallied to win. Johanson wasn't a bum or feather fisted, he had KO'd the highly rated Machen and was ranked highly himself.

Excellent points. Mental fortitude, discipline/daily practice, and toughness/stamina are all things a fighter is 100% responsible for and are within his control. Power, speed, and chin can only be enhanced to a certain degree and you're stuck with whatever you're born with for the most part. It's silly to overlook a fighter's lack of dedication but criticize another for something biological.