Patterson is greater than Tyson

One of the points you might have misconstrued is that Mike never got up off the canvas to win. Ever. When he went down, he was eventually going to lose, there's never an example of him coming back after that. Louis, Holmes, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, all did that, and it showed that they had championship heart.

Mike did have a heart, his trying hard even after being borderline tortured by Lennox Lewis proves that. However, it doesn't square up with the amazing courage and drive to win of...say, Holmes vs. Shavers II. Shavers' shot was one of the most ******edly powerful shots ever landed in a boxing ring, and Holmes not only got up, but regained control within the round. Iron Mike never did anything of the sort.

It might make it easier to note that, when talking about Ali's resiliency Tyson broke down and cried and said (paraphrase); "Ali fought as though his life depended on it, as though he'd rather die than lose. I don't feel that, never did. It's just a fight, money." That says a lot about Mike as an All Timer. He was unquestionably a top 10 ATG, but he fades behind the men who were ready to sacrifice seemingly anything to win...the true sportsmen ,you might say.

 

I don't think that's totally a full picture .. Holmes was beating win 34 year old Shavers and got caught once in the 23 rounds of their fights .. Larry was a much better fighter in his own prime than the old Shavers .. off course Holmes showed his guts but he showed there same guts getting up against Tyson except that time the opponent was a monster ... Tyson lost to Buster Douglas on the greatest night of Buster's life .. Buster was always a huge , super talented under achiever. That night he fought the fight of his life against a completely disinterested Tyson .. Mike took a pounding for many rounds and did not quit and almost came back to stop him in the eighth ... he showed a ton of guts but was fighting a terrific fighter than night .. the same when he lost to Evander the first time .. he showed a ton of heart .. Against Lewis , far past his own best he showed again a ton of heart .. he just happened to be fighting exceptional fighters when he fought them .. I think he would have gotten up if he fought Peter Rademacher personally ..

 

Mike Tyson KO 1 Floyd Patterson

 

Again how they would fair in a H2H match-up has absolutely NOTHING to do with this thread.

 

Great post Rules! But I wouldn't say Mike's "unquestionably a top 10 ATG". I think that's very questionable. I have him just outside of it (though I have him in my top 10 H2H).

 

Does quality of opposition ?

 

Absolutely. Where does "Mike Tyson KO1 Floyd Patterson" delve into that? How is it even remotely relevant?

 

59-10. It's a barnburner!!

 

Here is my problem with this,

Rocky Graziano got off the canvas to win. Jake LaMotta never did. What does this tell us about Graziano versus LaMotta? Graziano proved he had championship heart and LaMotta didn't? I think what it actually shows is that it was easier to knock Graziano down than it was to knock LaMotta down. LaMotta took the same punches and stayed upright.

I see this as one of the most misleading of spins. It somehow makes getting knocked down by Pete Rademacher and thus having to get off the floor to beat him a positive. It is hard to imagine Tyson ever getting knocked down by Rademacher or having to go as far with him as Patterson went.

Ali has been brought up, and Tyson doesn't quite compare, but Tyson is a hell of a lot closer to Ali than Patterson is. One of the points which is made here, that Patterson has a better win at 37 than Tyson does, can also be made in a comparison of Patterson with Ali. Ali's last win was at 36. Only thing this proves to me is that this isn't much of a useful standard. My guess is one reason Patterson lasted so well is that he didn't stay on his feet when over matched to absorb punishment. Patterson probably didn't take nearly as much punishment from Liston in two fights as Tyson did from Douglas or Holyfield in one.

 

I've read through the whole thread and I don't really know what to make of it. On the one hand, I agree with the folks backing Tyson. But the fans backing Patterson are putting forward a better arguement. Although I don't agree with them. When I make divisional lists, I tend to do it by putting the guys I think should be in there in tiers. The way I decide who goes in what tier is pretty simple. If I think someone in tier three should be above someone in tier two, then I'll move him up. For heavyweight, these are my tiers:

#1. Ali/Louis
#2. Holmes/Lewis/Foreman
#3. Wlad/Holyfield/Frazier
#4. Marciano/Liston/Tyson
#5. Charles/Johnson/Patterson/Bowe

Obviously this is all just my thoughts, but I don't think that Patterson should be in the same tier as Tyson, as that would mean being in the same tier as Liston. Which feels very wrong. Tyson and Liston would be a better comparison IMO.

 

To end this debate, Floyd Patterson did better than Mike Tyson ever did in his later years, he was also a much more mature individual than Mikey, he did not need Cus D Amato forever, like nose wiping for Mikey. Patterson did not lose to Steroid over weight fat boxers like Tyson fought in his later years. Maybe Tyson did Steroids? His peak was over at 23, that is pure excuses, he was a one time Circus Show that lasted for 3 years. Who did he beat an old Larry Holmes?, he is as bad as Gerry Cooney's assault on the aged fighters who escaped from the Rest Homes. Floyd has fought and beat tougher fighters past his peak years, Chuvalo and Bonavena.

 

I appreciate your redaction, but I still don't see that as affirming Mike's championship heart in comparison to Holmes, Ali, Frazier, Foreman....

When did Mike ever battle a monster puncher still in his prime as he was, scrape himself off the floor twice (almost getting stopped more than three times in the fight), then roar back to knock the guy out? Does he really compare to a Foreman? Or a 33 year old Holmes getting floored so hard he got up and bounced off the turnbuckle to knock the **** out of a hot young heavyweight (Snipes)? Ali getting his head nearly knocked off by THAT uppercut in the fifth round against Foreman then just going right back to out fighting him and making him look terrible before viciously knocking him out in the 8th round? Even Frazier kept getting up after getting floored by Foreman umpteen times, clapping his glovers together, still ready to fight.

No, Mike did nothing of the sort. He lost really bad to a third-rate heavyweight who just happened to have the day of his life, a Holyfield even older and more washed up than he (twice), and a Lewis who was also older and past it.

I have Mike at #10 ATG, so let's not get into my being a Tyson hater, far from it.

I also don't rate LaMotta with Holmes, Ali, or Louis. No way. He was an excellent fighter (hell, he beat Robinson, greatest fighter ever...once out of 6). But he just happened to have a movie made out of his life, kind of. Doesn't mean he a top 25 Elite ATG, like the aforementioned three names. Or Armstrong, Robinson, Leonard, Hearns, Holyfield, Foreman, Duran, RJJ....he wasn't one of THOSE guys. No.

All respect for your assertions.

 

Who do you feel fought better contenders as champion ? Where do Jackson, Rademacher, Harris , London , McNeeley and Ingo ( one of the worst heavyweight champs in history ) match up against Berbick, Smirth, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks ? Who are the five best fighters Patterson beat ? Who do you pick H2H in Tyson vs Patterson ?

 

Bravo.

 

I would give Tyson the edge in competition as champion, but Floyd faced better competition throughout his career than Tyson did.

I also think Tyson knocks out Patterson early in a fight as he does Marciano yet I am able to distinguish that from Tyson being outright greater than both unlike some evidently.