Paulino Uzcudun vs. Primo Carnera. ( 1933 world title fight )

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Jan 4, 2019.



  1. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    Looking Loughran & Levinsky up on boxrec, it is easy to see why they dropped out of the NBA ratings by the end of 1932.

    Levinsky lost 6 of 8 that year.

    Loughran entered 1932 coming off a loss to Levinsky. In 1932 he lost twice to Steve Hamas, the first by KO, managed a SD win over Hamas, and then lost to Poreda. So he 1 and 3 for the year.

    The head-scratcher is how Levinsky managed a #7 rating in The Riing ratings.
     
  2. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    What I meant by "slow" is that Risko only fought three times that year, which was a fraction of the number of times he usually fought in a given year. It was not aimed at the quality of his opposition because, as you point out, it was top notch.

    How Levinsky held onto his Annual Ring Ranking requires a better understanding of the fights themselves - not just the numbers...

    ...Levinsky lost twice to Baer; Carnera and Risko - all of whom rank above him for the year, anyway.
    The loss shown against Sekyra was a Newspaper Decision - so, how heavily this counts against Levinksy, who knows?

    Mickey Walker is the only the opponent, who Levinsky registered a loss against that year, that ranked below him in the Annual Ratings and the reasons for that state of affairs is debatable.



    I'm sure the highlight reel shows Uzcudun having his moments; especially, since this first bout was held in Spain. I am, at the moment, happy with what I've read so far, which indicates a fairly low-key affair, with Uzcudun perhaps making an early showing, but no real impression over the course and it being a fairly easy win for Carnera.



    I am doubtful. For reasons already given.



    This is really not about Carnera.

    Uzcudun was what he was and that was no challenge to Carnera, whatsoever.



    I have not been convinced, thus far, of the alleged inadequacy of the NBA ratings. Other than the curiosity of Gastanaga's ranking, what else is there to question? If you're a ranked boxer like Levinsky; putting in good showings but losing to other, higher-ranked boxers, you deserve to be maintaining your position. In Levinsky's case, for example, I don't think his rating was granted him as a given and that he'd had to work for it.



    Likewise, to an extent.

    However, as explained, Risko was ranked; it's just that his rating was impacted by some adverse results, combined with the unfortunate timing of some good ones.
     
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  3. Woller

    Woller Active Member Full Member

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    In his book "Everybody Boo…" referee Moss Deyong writes that he had Carnera as winner of 8 of the 10 rounds, and Uzcudun only lasted the distance because Carnera was wearing ill fitting gloves. The Spanish judge told him that of course Carnera won, but he could not vote against his countryman. The riot had been frightening with Deyong hiding under the ring until heavily armed soldiers had got the crown under control.
     
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  4. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I will compile them shortly.

    At the moment I'm have copies of articles with the following listings:

    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 26/03/1932 (Asbury Park Press)
    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 21/09/1932 (Detroit Free Press)
    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 20/09/1933 (Los Angeles Times) - previously posted in this thread.
    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 20/12/1933 (The Decatur Herald - IL)

    In addition to the above, I found a piece from December '32, reporting on a list, compiled for the New York Sun, by 60 boxing writers. This seemed to tally with the Ring's Annual Rating for the same year (as per boxrec), with some minor differences.
     
  5. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Thanks for sharing in advance. I think history has given Carrera a bad wrap. While he might have been in a fixed fight or two, this was the 1930s and fixed fights were a problem. Carrera won his share of matches vs good competition, and Uzcudun qualifies as a significant win.
     
  6. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    "Fixed fight or two." lol
     
  7. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    "The riot had been frightening with Deyong hiding under the ring until heavily armed soldiers had got the crowd under control."

    So, it does sound like the crowd on the whole did not agree with the decision.

    "Uzcudun only lasted the distance because Carnera was wearing ill-fitting gloves."

    Why was that so?

    And as Uzcudun lasted against absolutely everybody until the much more dangerous punching Joe Louis five years later, this remark, rather than giving a lift to his opinion of the fight, raises for me the issue of this man's bias. That Carnera had it in him to stop Uzcudun is not a given by any means.

    "The Spanish judge told him"

    I would like to hear this directly from the Spanish judge.

    This whole bit sounds self-serving and given Carnera's rep for fixed fights, it does make one wonder why the crowd would riot if Uzcudun was so obviously non-competitive.

    Spanish sporting fans might just be like that, but I would prefer more evidence from other sources, not the ref whose scoring in the fight ignited the riot. For example, what did the Spanish press think of the decision?

    *It might seem here that I am being stubborn. I admit I don't know anything about this fight except a comment on boxrec supporting the Carnera victory, and some film which shows Uzcudun doing well, but which is hardly enough to draw any conclusion on. But a quote from the referee whose scoring caused a riot? If I am on a jury, I view his testimony with plenty of skepticism. What else is he to say? "I would have given it to Uzcudun, but I was handsomely paid to give it to Carnera." Not likely.

    Even if Carnera clearly deserved the win, the fact that there was a riot would help the build-up to the rematch, potentially spun as Carnera getting the chance to wipe the slate clean of this controversy.
     
  8. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As previously mentioned...


    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 26/03/1932 (Asbury Park Press)

    Champion - Max Schmeling

    1. Jack Sharkey
    2. Ernie Schaaf
    3. Primo Carnera
    4. Mickey Walker
    5. Max Baer
    6. King Levinsky
    7. Young Stribling
    8. Steve Hamas
    9. Tuffy Griffiths
    10. Paulino Uzcudun



    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 21/09/1932 (Detroit Free Press)

    Champion - Jack Sharkey

    1. Max Schmeling
    2. Max Baer
    3. Stanley Poreda
    4. Johnny Risko
    5. Mickey Walker
    6. Larry Gains
    7. Ernie Schaaf
    8. Tony Shucco
    9. Isidore Gastanaga
    10. Jack Peterson



    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 20/09/1933 (Los Angeles Times)

    Champion - Primo Carnera

    1. Max Baer
    2. Max Schmeling
    3. King Levinsky
    4. Jack Sharkey
    5. Tommy Loughran
    6. Isadore Gastanaga
    7. Paul Cavalier
    8. Steve Hamas
    9. Patsy Perroni
    (a number-10 contender is not listed in this publication)



    NBA Heavyweight Ratings - published 20/12/1933 (The Decatur Herald - IL)

    Champion - Primo Carnera

    1. Max Baer
    2. Max Schmeling
    3. Tommy Loughran
    4. King Levinsky
    5. Johnny Risko
    6. Don McCorkindale
    7. Jack Sharkey
    8. Patsy Perroni
    9. Lee Ramage
    10. Paulino Uzcudun





    Additional Boxing Writers Ratings, Year-End 1932, for the New York Sun

    Published 28/12/1932 - Star-Gazette (Elmira, Chemung, New York)

    1. Max Schmeling
    2. Jack Sharkey
    3. Max Baer
    4. Stanley Poreda
    5. Primo Carnera
    6. Johnny Risko
    7. King Levinsky
    8. Mickey Walker
    9. Young Stribling
    10. Ernie Schaaf

    As a foot note to this list, 38 out of the 60 writers voted Schmeling the best Heavyweight Boxer of 1932.
     
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  9. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    Just on the records of these men. Only Risko had a good 1932,

    1932
    Risko-----3-0
    Uzcudun-----1-3
    Levinsky-----2-6
    Loughran-----1-3

    In 1933 the records to Sept when most like the challenge to Carnera was finalized,

    Risko-----2-2
    Levinsky-----4-2
    Loughran-----4-1
    Uzcudun-----6-0

    Putting the two years together

    Risko-----5-2
    Levinsky-----6-8
    Loughran-----5-4
    Uzcudun-----7-3

    Much is made of Levinsky only losing (if often) to top men, but that was true of all of them, with Risko in early 1933 with Daniels being the possible exception. Uzcudun only lost to top men also. Clearly Uzcudun is the one contender who was on a winning roll in 1933.
     
  10. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict booted Full Member

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    Thank you very much. I appreciate this, and am certain others will also.
     
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  11. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Once again, the numbers do not tell the whole story and the problem with the above is that Uzcudun hadn't actually beaten any "top men", either. So, he's the stark exception of the bunch.


    Apropos of the my comment above, Uzcudun had a pleasant run in '33, up until Carnera, because he'd faced modest opposition.

    The numbers alone do not strengthen your position. The quality of the opposition must be taken into consideration and to state that: "Uzcudun is the one contender who was on a winning roll in 1933", ignores the fact that his first four opponents for that year were nowhere near ranked and the next two were fringe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  12. reznick

    reznick Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Using great/perfect boxing technique as the odometer? Yes.
    Comparatively specifically with modern SHWs? No.

    Also, if I show you Joshua and Klitschko throwing a heavy right hand with their feet a bit more squared than they normally should be, what meaning should we derive from your example?
     
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  13. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Doesn't believe the hype booted Full Member

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    The thing is, this isn’t some unrepresentative, cherrypicked example. This is how Primo punched. Anthony Joshua has much, much better mechanics than Carnera. He just looks, moves, and punches like a boxer with superior training, despite the stiffness that comes with being his size. Some of the worst, most awkward punches that Joshua has thrown in his career might look like some of Primo’s usual punches but don’t be fooled! Watch their fights in full and there’s simply no comparison.
     
  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If a punch lands it's all good.
     
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  15. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Doesn't believe the hype booted Full Member

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    I guess...in the same way that any pass that's caught is all good.

    But I think his technique and mechanics are still worth noting, considering how often he gets compared with (or used as a stand-in for) other, better big men.
     

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