Pavlik vs. Duran at 160 -- Who wins?

****ing stupid people, I swear.

 

barkley was more heavier handed then pavlik

 

Stupid how? Go read my posts before this to see my reasoning about Duran. I brought up good facts which Duran fans cannot ignore. He beat Barkley but that makes him the best ATG ever? I guess Nunn and Benn are the best ever also, and Benn has to be over Duran since he stopped Barkley in one. Hearns beat Virgil Hill who was undefeated and had 10 title defenses at light heavyweight. Had Duran beaten Hill think about the credit he would have gotten. But since Hearns did the accomplishment it is not as big a deal. That is the Duran fan formula. I am trying to rate Duran fairly. You guys really think beating Barkley makes him ATG #3?

 

His lightweight reign warrants a very high ranking by itself..He also beat several top 140 contenders (and future champs) at the time aswell in between his 135 defenses. He is one of most dominant champs in the history of the one of the strongest divisions ever and most have him 1 or 2 H2H at the weight and about the same on resume.

Beating, (and very clearly beating) a bigger man and fellow top 20 ATG for the undisputed welter title is what pushes him up so far.
Several past prime victories against even bigger men who were among some of the best fighters in their divisions at the time just ices the cake. Guys like Moore, Cueves, Palomino, Barkley among others.

3 is high..I have him top 10 but outside isnt unreasonable. I just dont think its reasonable to have him outside the top 15.
I dont really rank a guy on his losses..its the quality wins that matter most. I dont really take his fight with Hagler into consideration because he lost that quite clearly, clearer then most seem to make out.


His in the ring dominance and form on film should be taken into consideration aswell. He is without a doubt one of the best fighters I have ever seen in their prime.

 

What this good man says.

 

yeah he was . I do think Duran could beat someone like Pavlik at 160. But Duran beating Hopkins no way. The style matchup would not work. This was not an age or weight matchup, it is the matchup Duran never liked. A guy who moved and had head movement who did not fight with him was a guy Duran did not like. He wanted guys to brawl with him so he could slip their punches and counter. And who does that? Iran Barkley. I think Pavlik would try to unload on Duran and Roberto would start to take over like he did with Moore, using his opponents aggression to counterpunch and wear him out. He was great at that. He could do that with the lesser quality guys but not the greats.

 

Pick whatever weight you want..Roberto stops him.

Miguel doesnt embarrass himself but he would not see out the fight.

 

Duran

 

Nice post. I hear what you say and you brought up good points. The thing to figure out is where the wins at lightweight and 140 put him. I am not as sure that his lightweight reign was really that strong. I always thought that for him to be top 10 ATG he should have beaten two of the guys he lost to. Had he beaten Benitez and Hearns then that would have sealed it for me, but both those guys overwhelmed him. Yes he was heavier there, but you know he did fight at 154 pounds as tuneups in 1978 before Benitez or Hearns even fought at that weight. So I cannot use the weight as an excuse. Size? Didn't seem to hurt him for Barkley or Moore.

 

Really research it and you will find it was very solid.

There are better eras but his one was very good still.

Often people try to discredit Roberto's lightweight wins because they know little about his opponants there. They assume his level of dominance at the weight had more to do with his lack of quality of opposition rather than his ability.

Id probably pick Buchanan and DeJesus over any fighter from 130-140 around right now for reference. And many consider lightweight one of, if not the strongest division in the world right now. (DeJesus-Hatton 50-50 and I wont put Pac in any of those matchups just yet)

 

Against Barkely and Moore it was mostly just the size and their power he had to overcome.

Against Benitez and the version of Hearns he fought it was so much more than that.

 

Depends on what Duran shows up. However I would favor Pavlik. Duran was average above 147 and didnt accomplish much. Yeah he beat an Iran barkely whos only claim to fame was KO'ing a chinny Thomas Hearns but he didnt do much else and was stopped by Benn soon after in the 1st. Duran also lost to guys like Kirkland Laing and Robbie Sims. Clearly a lightweight moving up that many classes and remaining competitive is an achievement few in the history of boxing could match, but that isnt the question. The question is if he could beat Pavlik. He'd have a chance, but I'd have to favor Pavlik.

 

probably so. I see Duran/Cotto going similar to Cotto/Margarito. I am not saying Duran is the same as Margarito who is limited. Duran would have never been stopped by Mosley. Maybe outboxed but not stopped, yet even outboxed I am not sure. Shane stays a little too still for Duran and I could see Duran winning the way he beat Ray in the first fight. As for Cotto, I think Duran would be hit in the early rounds, but would be getting his punches in and eventually those punches would start to tell on Cotto and Duran would start to take over and stop him in about 10. Cotto does not have the foot movement or head movement to stay away from Duran, and he does not have the power to keep him off or knock him out. So Duran would eventually get to him. I agree. The thing I think which makes Cotto great is his heart and confidence. His size is what is the problem at welterweight. The big welterweights might cause him trouble. but I like the way he fights and his will to win. With Margarito he had too much to overcome. I do think with his will to win he will be in the welterweiht division a long time and might perservere in the end and be champ for awhile.

 

It begs the question though..Does beating that version of Tommy Hearns mean more than beating Jermain Taylor?, who is Kelly's only middleweight scalp worth mentioning.

Iran also beat Scypion, Olajide and Williams aswell. He was a top contender when he faced Tommy.

 

I want to make a point regarding Cotto here. This is a case where Margarito beat him up, but I think that Cotto comes out as the greater fighter in the end. If he does not lose his confidence and keeps fighting with his spirit, the Margarito fight will be forgotten. He just has to avoid guys like Margarito who brawl and are strong since Cotto is a little small for a welterweight. He still seems to be a 140 pounder when I see him. If I were in his corner and management I would do exactly what he is doing. Call out the guys like Pacman and Hatton and fight them. Get the good 140 pounders to move up and fight. That is how he will be at his best.