Pavlik vs. Duran at 160 -- Who wins?

Floyd does neither. He doesn't beat him H2H and he certainly doesn't rank higher than him. There's too many kids on this damn site.

 

Boxrec is often incomplete..Boxrec does not always tell the whole story.
Boxrec is a good site but if you are going to base your opinion solely on it than you show your stupidity and lack of knowledge on the sport.

I shouldnt have to because anyone with a shread of knowledge on the history of the sport would know those names and recognise how good they were.

Carlos Ortiz...2 time undisputed Lightweight world champ, 1 time undisputed Jnr welter champ. Dominant Lightweight champ for nearly a decade in a strong era. Regarded by nearly all who know the sport as a top 5 Lightweight of alltime.Ken was the only man to stop him. Kenny did beat him in the tail end of his career though.

Jim Watt..One of the greatest british lightweights ever, would go on the hold the WBC title after Ken beat him.

Ismael Laguna...A true great at lightweight, excellent fighter. 2 time undisputed lightweight champ. Holds a win over Ortiz. Kenny beat Laguna twice.

Carlos Hernandez..Was a former undisputed jnr welter champion when Ken beat him. Holds wins over Eddie Perkins, Joe Brown, Bunny Grant, Davey Moore to name a few.

Ruben Navarro...Top contender for over half a decade, 3 time title challenger with wins over Jimmy Robertson, Kobayashi, Takayama and Ray Adigun.

There is more if you want..shoud I go on?

Ken just got voted 7th greatest British fighter of all time..Considering the great fighters that came out of Britain that is a big rap.
Still think he is "borderline HOF" :rofl

Yes.

And anyway I clearly stated that Ken and Esteban were great lightweights..Hernandez especially and Corrales did not forge much of a career there.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about.

In their era there were only two titles..They were around when all the top fighters fought each other and most fighters did a lot of their best work in non-title fights trying to earn a shot. They didnt try to hold on to their piece of the world championship and avoid all the best around at the time..Their sucess was prevented by Duran who wasted no time in cleaning out the division and becoming the dominant force.
Something none of those fighters you mentioned ever did in any of the divisions they fought..Only Diego at least trying to have a go but failed.

Explain to me then how does Roberto go on to beat fighters like Moore, Barkley and give Hagler such a tough fight but loses to a fighter the calibre of Kirkand Laing.
Is Laing greater than the fighters I have mentioned?

Could it be that maybe in a 120 fight career you not always going to be in a 100% shape for every fight.

Its not as though these facts are hard to find, they have been well documented.
Is it an excuse? Hell no, thats totally Duran's fault for not training hard and preventing his out of the ring issues affecting him.
But the whole point of this excercise is to discuss who would win in a fight with the best version of each fighter at 160.

If you seriously think that the Duran that fought Hagler was the same as the one who fought Simms then you need to have your head checked.

Whoever said he was an ATG..Not every figther is an ATG but I think I well and truly proved he was not a D class fighter. He was decent contender for his time.

There is nothing wrong with having 3 out of those 5 names there. Armstrong, Leonard and Pea are all great fighters.
I have Leonard and Armstrong greater than Duran in my alltime rankings. Pea is not far behind him
But Floyd and Shane there is laughable...Who the hell did they beat to warrant being in the same suburb as those figthers?

Gary Lockett? Rubio?
Come on mate...Kelly has beaten trash who match stylistically well for him.
JT is not all that good either and I reckon we will find that out pretty soon when he loses again. Kelly is a middleweight and will be remembered as one, of course he will retire higher up the middleweight rankings than Duran did.

Who is greater means jack in this arguement, Roberto didnt try to forge out a career as a middleweight, he just went up there because thats where there big fights at the time..
Who looked the more skilled and better fighter does matter.
At their best there is no contest..Duran.

But as I stated in my very first post..At this stage I pick Roberto to beat Kelly but not by much.
We only saw Duran at middleweight past his prime but this is obviously where Kelly is at his best.

 

Duran by ko.

 

We'll never know will we..but Duran had trouble with speedy boxers like Leonard...If Floyd "boxes" he wins..if he "fights" than he loses!

 

Floyd is nothing like Leonard though and he handled Ray's speed fine in the first fight.
The second fight wasnt anything near the one-sided fight people make out..Ray was only just ahead when Duran quit, neither fighter was landing to much that was significant in that fight until the last round.

Roberto did fine against fast fighters at lightweight..Guys who were straight up runners aswell. He was very quick himself and his intelligent pressure is a lot better than Castillo's, which PBF had clear trouble with over the 24 rounds they fought.

 

FLOYD HAD LITTLE TROUBLE IN THE 2ND FIGHT WITH CASTILLO...AND THE FIRST FIGHT HE HANDLED RAY'S SPEED FINE CUZ RAY FOUGHT ROBERTOS FIGHT...2ND AND 3RD FIGHT HE HAD MASS TROUBLE WITH HIS SPEED...

IF FLOYD BOXES HE WINS..IF FLOYD TRADES THAN HE LOSES....LOOK IM NOT SAYIN FLOYD IS GREATER THAN DURAN ON AN ATG LIST OR NE THING..IM JUSS SAYIN FLOYD BEATS HIM H2H IMO..:hat

 

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boxrec is facts dip ****:admin

I have more faith in boxrec's accuracy then your's a duran nuthugger...Boxrec has a team of analyst doing research why you have your make beleive fantasy of duran's career


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You listed his opp without going into what they accomplsihed. please enlighten us as to what they accomplsihed in their careers to be considered great. because we all know ken buchana is not an atg and is a borderline Hofer

how many title defenses did jim watt make of his wbc title...is he HOF

how many title defenses did laguna have how long did he reign at 135

carlos hernandez was on the downside when buchanan beat him just like carlos ortiz..ken picked on faded fighters his whole career.

ruben navarro don't make me laugh the guy never even held a title always came up short you call that impressive.

Jose luis castillo, diego corrales, floyd mayweather jr, stevei johnston and casamayort all rank higher then ken buchanan at 135.

buchanan held the title for 1 year and that was it:deal

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are you saying ken buchanan and esteban de jesuses were better than:

1. genaro hernandez
2. diego corrales
3. jose luis castillo

duran nuthuggery at it's finest..:yikes




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here we go boys and girls, the length the duran nuthuggers go to defend his weak 135 reign.

ken buchana 4-1 in championship fights
esteban de jesus 3-3 in championship fights

diego corrales 7-1 in championship fights
jose luis castillo 6-3 in championship fights
genaro hernandez 11-2 in championship fights

are you saying jose luis castillo, diego corrales, joel casamayor, and floyd mayweather jr ducked each other:deal lasst itme I checked floyd was the dominant force at 130 and 135 for 7 years..




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ahh here we go the excuses I pointed out above pop up here..lol was duran ever in shape and focused when he lost a big fight...are you trying to tell me duran was not in hsape or fucsed when he lost to:

duran lost to average fighters at 160 because he was an average fighter at that weight. he didn't beat hagler, losing to hagler doewsn'ty make duran great:deal talk about ****ing ******ed



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what did robbie simms accomplsih in his career..beating barkely doesn't make you a hofer or an atg.

he ain't even HOF material and we all know how weak HOF standards are



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I rank shane mosley, floyd mayweather jr, pernell whitaker, benny leonard, and henry armstrong above duran at 135.

duran's weak resume at 135 can't compare to floyd's body of work at 130 and 135. you ask who did they beat..you must be joking..who did duran beat at 135 that was better then a jose luis castillo or diego corrales..duran fought in a weak era everyone knows this. floyd fought in an era of great lighjtweights. hence fight of the year going to cortrales and castillo. how many fight of the years has duran been in.



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duran didn't do **** a middle to be compared with kelly pavlik..how many title defenses did duran have at 160 you guessed it zero.. no title reign of any significance to even be compared to pavlik or any middle weight champ with more than one title defence.

duran's best was at 135, the duran that got his head knocked in by tommy hearns is what he would look like against pavlik

 

Were not discussing Floyd and his resume at 130 to Duran at 135..I'm talkin bout Duran at 135 and Floyd at 135...Floyd was 4-0 1ko...Duran was 63-1...As I said I'm a big fan of Floyd but he cant compare with Duran at 135...

I disagree with the other poster about the Mosley part..Mosley was 32-0 30kos and he fought everyone at LW that he could before he moved up....Mosley is comparable to Duran at LW if you ask me!

 

Why Mosley over Duran at 135?

If Duran's resume at 135 is so bad, how does a guy who's best opponent at the weight was clearly Philip Holiday rank higher? Add to that, he didn't even dominate Holiday.

ReturnofTheKing has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

 

Thats fine...I just dont agree with your reasoning.

Floyd won the 2nd fight clearly but he didnt have "little trouble" in it. He packed up shop for several long stretchs in that fight, Castillo didnt have the speed or skill to capitalise, just to give Floyd a hard fight and force him to give ground. Duran does absolutely everything better than Castillo.

The 3rd Duran-Leonard fight means nothing, both were out of their prime, Duran more so.
The second fight just didnt happen that way and it suprises me the amount of people who see the fight like that. I often find they havent watched it many times or at all (Im not accusing you of that but can be the case sometimes). But the fact is Ray was doing a lot of running, a lot of taunting but not a lot of punching and not a whole heap of landing either. He frustrated Roberto but he wasnt schooling or dominating him at all which the scores indicate. It might have been heading that way but as I said Floyd is not really like Leonard anyway. So I think that comparison is flawed.

Also I thinks it crap that "Ray fought Duran's fight" the first time around personally. I can go on for ages as to reasons why but I will just sum it up with most people admonish Leonard for the things he didnt do in the first fight instead of giving Duran credit for things he prevented Ray from doing.
I cant see how it was Ray's plan to nearly get knocked out in the 2nd round and hurt several times early on. He actually had his best moments later on trying to take the fight away from Roberto, not running away from him, which he had done throughout the fight with little success.

 

Shane didnt fight everyone at 135 he could mate..His record is pretty average there actually in a historical sense, though he looked awesome and was very dominant.

Though as cobra said the best fighter he fought was Holiday and he didnt exactly smash him or anything.

ReturnoftheKing,

There is no use talking to someone who knows nothing about the history of the sport outside of the last decade. Boxrec bandits get found out pretty quickly, I have already exposed you as one and Im sure you will get embarrassed again very soon.
Its been fun :hi:

 

Isn't it interesting that Taylor (who is not all that good either) struggled but got a split decision and unanimous decision win over an old Hopkins. And, Calzaghe struggled but got a split decision win over an even older Hopkins. Some might say that sort of puts Joe's real level in a more appropriate light.


Some might say:

Taylor = good but not great
Calzaghe = same (at best)

Taylor versus Calzaghe = coin flip depending upon your predisposition

 

JT is pretty good..And against certain fighters he looks excellent.

But I dont think he has the true skill or versatility that will see him continue to be a top fighter as long as Joe was.

Excellent athlete..But take his jab away he looks a bit lost..And he has certainly shown he can not handle a worldclass pace for the full 12.

Joe would have set this and then some..Probably another ugly win for Joe but I just dont really see an arguement for JT here, it would have been pretty wide in the end.

 

Returnoftheking is such a ******, he likes to embarrass himself.

 

Pavlik loves pressure fighters, he will always have trouble with speed and slickness but not with a smaller man trying to wear him down. Pavlik's workrate is far superior to Barkley's as are his powers of recuperation. Pavlik may never come close to Duran's resume and status but let's not confuse that with H2H.