Peak James Toney Versus Peak Joe Calzaghe

I think Joes volume punching and feet are a bad match up for Toney, but I think Toney is a greater fighter over all.

Joe was also pretty defensively responsible for someone who threw so many punches, he generally didn’t leave his head in the air or stand still after letting his hands go.

 

I know you should not let one fight influence your decision.However i saw Calzaghe v Robin Reid live and Joe was very fortunate to get the decision. I repeat this should not affect Joe`s overall career but i cant get out of my head that if Reid could push Joe so close then i think there is no way an elite fighter like Toney loses to him

 

couldn't that also be said of Tiberi's performance vs. Toney?

 

Having "traits of Calzaghe" doesn't mean that there are comparisons to be made between him a fighter like Nunn, simply using angles and movement doesn't mean that two fighters share similarities- Nunn is more like Ali than Calzaghe is like Nunn. Yes, Jirov had a similar workrate, but by the time of the Toney fight, he had left nearly all of his boxing and defensive skills in the dust to become a much simpler fighter, a nigh straight up slugger. And despite all of this, Jirov was still insanely competitive with Toney throughout the fight.

Him being caught by far more fighters than Toney (that's what I think you're trying to say, I'm just assuming that's a typo) has no bearing on who'll win. He will likely get knocked down in the starting rounds and adjust after, he's not going to stay down, and he sure as hell isn't going to go back in the same way again. Toney is going to sit on the backfoot for most of the fight, and even if his counters find Calzaghe when he comes in, he'll still be getting outpointed.

The better fighter doesn't always win.

 

Yes your right that is why i said it shouldn`t influence my decision but seeing it live leaves a bigger impression than seeing a fight on tv

 

We're gonna have to agree to disagree it's a simple as that I think Toney's proven track of beating elite Southpaws and fighting at a higher level against better opposition is the difference.

Calzaghe is too open Toney will exploit it and whilst Calzaghe has a good chin Toney could certainly get his respect with counter shots.

Seeing how many right hand counter shots the likes of Reid, Woodhall, landed on Calzaghe makes me think Toney would have a field day.

 

Very tough question this.

On one hand peak Toney is quite literally one of the best boxers to ever lace them up.

On the other a durable fighter with the workrate of Calzaghe is exactly the right style to beat Toney.

Do we believe Tiberi and Thadzi always beat Toney, or do we believe they were off nights?

Right now, this second, I'm saying the best version of Toney beats all 3 of them. Nothing else to base it on other than a feeling in my gut.

Whilst I'm feeling that gut I'm also saying Jones didn't beat the best version of Toney neither.

 

There is no scenario that allows for a Calzaghe win over Toney at any weight from 168 upwards. Joe has nothing to keep Toney off him.

Ugly fight but easy UD for Toney.

And I'm not a Calslappy hater.

 

Toney didn't exactly handle southpaws with ease though, did he? He was struggling a fair bit against Nunn for a good while, and the Johnson fight was a close run thing. Toney was knocked down and had to dig deep to scrape a very close (and some might call it 'a fortunate') SD.

I mean the W's make for a nice talking point but they don't necessarily translate into a meaningful forecast in terms of a fight between Toney and Calzaghe. Joe had a better engine than Nunn, a higher output than Johnson and much faster hand-speed than Jirov (as one would expect).

 

And you could also say all 3 of those opponents would be better than 95 percent of Calzaghe's resume who does he have on his resume that compares to Jirov, Johnson, or Nunn ?

All 3 of those opponents were prime aswell infact you could say Calzaghe has never beaten an elite prime fighter on the level of any of those 3 with the exception of Kessler.

Toney didn't have an easy time with them no but they're elite Southpaws I don't think many fighters who have an easy time with those fighters he still found a way to beat them.

 

Eh? It seems like the argument has shifted here. Initially, the claim was that Toney's performances against southpaws like Nunn, Jirov, and Johnson demonstrate how he'd handle Calzaghe. Now, the focus has moved to comparing résumés, which doesn't address the point.

The issue isn't whether Toney fought elite southpaws - he did, and credit is due for those wins. However, as I pointed out, he didn't exactly handle them with ease. Struggling against Nunn for large portions of the fight, scraping by Johnson in a close SD, and taking a while to assert himself against Jirov show that Toney didn't simply dominate southpaws, even when he won. These performances don't automatically translate into him comfortably beating Calzaghe, who brings an entirely different set of challenges.

Calzaghe's pace, output, and adaptability present unique problems for Toney - problems that aren't solved by pointing to names on a résumé.

 

Suppose so.

 

I said he has a good record vs elite Southpaws you replied and said he didn't have an easy time in either of those fights. But the point i'm making is those Southpaws were elite they weren't just ordinary Southpaws, so i'm saying it should be to Toney's credit he found a way to beat all those very challenging Southpaws opponents. Especially when you consider Calzaghe never beat elite opponents on that level that were in their prime.

No don't get me wrong i wasn't suggesting Toney would beat Calzaghe comfortably far from it, i picked Toney by decision in a competitive fight i see him dropping Calzaghe at some point with a counter right hand and winning a 7-5 type decision.

The point i was making though is that Toney has actually dealt with similar traits regarding those Southpaw opponents i mentioned.

Jirov had the workrate he threw over 1000 punches and Toney dealt with that.

Nunn had the elusive style good hand speed and punched at unusual angles.

Even though those fighters aren't exactly like Calzaghe they do have traits similar to Calzaghe's strengths so i don't think Calzaghe would be bringing anything majorly surprising that Toney hasn't seen before.

My counter argument to that also is that you could say Calzaghe has never seen anything like Toney before either. I mean i guess Hopkins regarding his counter punching style could be used as an argument, but i don't really think Hopkins is at all like Toney and they don't really share any similar traits.

 

@Man_Machine Just to add Nunn actually had a very good workrate on par with Calzaghe's actually there's a fight he had vs John Scully where he threw almost over 1300 punches.

I couldn't find the stats for the Toney fight but i'm pretty sure Nunn was averaging atleast 70+ punches a round.

 

To clarify, I've been challenging the notion that Toney's wins over southpaws (elite or otherwise) like Nunn, Jirov, and Johnson provide a meaningful forecast for how he would handle Calzaghe. What I'm addressing is the implication that these performances demonstrate Toney would be fully prepared for the unique challenges Calzaghe brings. That's where I believe we differ.

My point isn't that Toney never faced anyone with traits similar to Calzaghe's, but rather that none of those opponents combined the same level of pace, output, and adaptability in the way Calzaghe did. Assembling traits from Nunn's elusiveness, Jirov's work rate, or Johnson's attributes and equating them to Calzaghe's fighting style oversimplifies what made Calzaghe such a unique challenge. The reality is that Toney experienced varying levels of difficulty against each of these opponents, and while he ultimately found ways to win, those struggles don't guarantee success against a fighter who combines those traits at a higher level.

You've also mentioned Nunn's 'elusive style' as a parallel to Calzaghe's traits, but Nunn wasn't particularly elusive in his fight with Toney. While he had moments early on where his movement was effective, his tactics often placed him in Toney's range for prolonged periods. This gave Toney far too many offensive opportunities — opportunities that a fighter consistently employing an elusive strategy might have avoided.

Moreover, from round 7 or 8 onward, it became clear that Nunn was flagging. His work rate and mobility declined significantly, making him a much easier target for Toney's counters. This is a critical distinction when comparing Nunn to Calzaghe, who was renowned for maintaining a relentless pace and adaptability throughout 12 rounds. Calzaghe had the better engine and wouldn't have given Toney the same openings that Nunn did as the fight wore on.

As for the notion that Calzaghe never faced anyone like Toney, this seems to be an extrapolation of my points and isn't part of my argument. The question isn't whether Calzaghe faced a stylistic clone of Toney but whether Calzaghe's unique style, pace, and adaptability would present problems Toney didn't encounter in his career. I believe they would, just as Toney would undoubtedly pose unique challenges for Calzaghe.

In short, stylistic clashes are nuanced and complex, and résumé comparisons or piecing together traits from various opponents, while useful to some extent, don't substitute for a proper analysis of the specific dynamics of this hypothetical match-up.