People are underestimating the size/strength difference between Couture & Toney

Not before he shoots in for a clean takedown, and GnPs a legend into dust though. Seriously, if Toney wins I would be absolutely ecstatic, but I am willing to put myself right out on a limb and say there is NO chance of it happening at all. Tito Ortiz is a good stand-up fighter in MMA, but it doesn't mean he'd have a snowball's chance in hell inside a boxing ring with Bernard Hopkins.

 

Yeah, making jokes about children with disabilities is far more mature than using an emoticon on a boxing forum. You're the adult, I'm the kid, for sure.

A world-class wrestler and veteran MMA specialist will not have any such trouble against a smaller, physically weaker MMA novice though.

 

Have you changed your username recently? I'm sure you were once known as Helen Keller...


...because that's the only way you could think Toney was in fantastic condition weighing 190 and 217lbs. :smoke

So does any non-moron who has seen James Toney fight.

Those were his best fighting weights. He looked better there, he fought better there, he achieved more there... Case closed.

Weight draining issues did affect Toney towards the end of his stint at 160 and towards the end of his stint at 168 because he allowed himself to get bigger, but for the periods when he was in shape and making weight without much fuss at mw and smw, he turned in by far the most complete performances of his career.

A weight-weakened fighter would NEVER have been able to perform as James did in the final round of the 1st fight with Mike McCallum - and that fight was at 160. That was a high-octane, high-intensity battle, and it was James who was pushing for the KO in an amazing last session... weight-weakened fighters don't do that. Toney was a phenomenon at 160.

atsch Oh dear.

You seem to be very, very confused.

You think that Toney was not at his peak at 160 and 168 because he allowed himself to balloon in weight between fights??

Think about what you're saying here.

Toney didn't start fighting at 160 because he loved cutting huge amounts of weight, draining himself, killing himself, starving himself... did he?

Obviously not. He started fighting there because that was his comfortable weight at the time.

Later, his attitude and lifestyle meant he could no longer make that weight, and was forced to move up. And again, his attitude and lifestyle meant he could no longer make that weight either, and he moved up again. And so on, and so on...

But this was not natural growth, not for the most part. James is 5ft 10in now, he was 5ft 10in when he weighed 237lbs vs Hasim Rahman, and he was 5ft 10in when he weighed in at 157lbs for his first world title fight vs Michael Nunn. His increase in weight was not natural, not normal, he let himself go, and was forced to move up because he couldn't make the commitment any more.

If James had the commitment and discipline of a Roy Jones, he would probably only ever have fought at 160 and 168, maybe 175 as well, but a 5ft 10in guy who starts at 160 very, very rarely ever becomes a legitimate cruiserweight and fights there for a prolonged period.

That's bull****. James's fitness, stamina, energy, workrate, endurance etc were far better when he was at a natural weight for him.

That I even have to explain this is utterly ****ing bizarre to me, I don't know what the hell you're on mate, but you should market it, make yourself some cash.

In the Nunn fight, Toney took control in the late rounds, after walking through fire for a long time. As I've already said, he was immense in the closing stages of the 1st McCallum war. He was comfortably winning 12 rounders with the likes of Tony Thornton, stopping the likes of Williams late on. Toney was fit and strong at 160 and 168, he proved this.

When did James ever maintain a high workrate for 12 rounds at 190 or heavyweight?? :huh Of course he never did, because he was carrying serious excess weight whenever he fought at those weights, those weights which were unnatural for him.

Even vs Jirov, James's best win above 168 IMO, he had to take most of the mid-late rounds off, lying on the ropes to conserve energy and trying to stay in it by landing eye-catching shots, because he couldn't match Jirov's workrate. We saw what James did with someone who fought in a similar style to Jirov at a good weight for Toney, Iran Barkley.

Barkley tried to do what Jirov did, the Blade rushed James early, hoping to pin him down with volume punching, but at 168 James was strong enough and energetic enough to match Barkley for workrate, and throw combinations, never let himself get hemmed in or pinned down, work Barkley over in each round, and get the stoppage. James could not do this to Jirov, because he could no longer be as busy or as aggressive, he had to conserve energy and pick Jirov off. Watch the fights, and you'll see the difference in James's approach.

James's form has been patchy throughout his career, he has had off-nights at every weight he has fought at and at every stage in his career, so picking out two fights means nothing. James very well may have been drained in the Tiberi fight, but that was one of his last fights at 160, and it's well known he moved up because he began to find it difficult after a while there. But that doesn't mean he wasn't comfortable and strong there when he chose to start his career there, or turned in some amazing performances there. And I'm dubious as to the impact of the weight with regard to the Johnson fight. I'm sure James comfortably made weight, coming in a pound or two under in fact. I think Johnson was just a stylistically tricky fighter for James to deal with. Not every difficult fight is down to weight, it can be down to a tough and determined opponent as well you know.

Yes, but again you are getting this arse-backwards. Because Toney was so indisciplined that he had to move up doesn't mean he wasn't natural, comfortable, fit and strong at those weights when he was at his peak there, it means that he moved up to higher weights to accommodate his indiscipline and excess weight, meaning he was in far worse physical condition there!!!!

atschatschatsch

:fire:fire:fire:


I've done it again, and I'm even more angry with myself than I was last time.

Yet again, I have been suckered into feeding this ****ing troll.

I stopped reading at the red again, because yet again I realized (too late) that I was wasting time on a complete turd.



You clearly have NOT even seen the Toney vs Nunn fight, because you are saying what every ESB teenage gimp says, that Toney was losing every round till he landed a big punch out of the clear blue sky...


BULL****. BULL**** OF THE HIGHEST ORDER.


Toney had completely turned that fight around by the time he landed the decisive punch - which you would already know if you were actually a Toney fan and not a little internet forum geek who loves arguing and slandering more than actually watching and understanding boxing.

Toney had won the three rounds leading up to 'that punch', he was in control by that point, he had shown fantastic strength, composure, endurance and skills to keep his cool through all of Nunn's good early work, and then impose himself on the fight, and start dictating matters.


If you are a real Toney fan as you present yourself to be, you're a disgrace to the rest of us.

Go watch the ****ing fight before you respond, you fake fan *****.

 

Hope so. Don't see it myself, think this is going to be a humiliating wipe-out, but I hope you are right and I am wrong.

 

A world-class wrestler with a brain in this situation will hear the buzzer, and shoot for a takedown, and it's good night. If Couture is too stupid to do this, I will be truly shocked and will happily munch crow publicly.

 

I will. A professional MMA fighter with a wrestling background should never, ever lose an MMA fight to a boxer with no MMA background. If he does, it can only be attributed to an obscene lack of intelligence - the exact same as if B-Hop allowed himself to get his clock cleaned by a Tito Ortiz. Veterans of either sport must have the nous to play to their own strengths and win easily, or they do not deserve the title of veteran.

 

Sorry, but had to delete some of your stuff, to fit under 10000.
Let me start with his work rate at 190, do you really expect for a fighter to keep the same workrate when he moves up in wieght. DO you really expect him to throw the same amount of punches at 160 than at 190? You are a moron. He fought 9 times at 190 and won all of them w/o excuses, w/o tiring, w/o any weight issues. He was quicker, younger, and faster at lower weight classes, but that does not mean he was in the best conditioning. That means he is talented and younger.
I see I win again instead of giving a counter arguement to all the evidence I laid down, you pick only one small area and one fight. The fact was Toney was losing the fight. Second you don't have to tak emy word for it you can take Toney's word for it. Your saying that your stupid opinion outweights what James Toney has actually said and claims. Talk about a being a narcissist, you clearly are the texbook definition. You are also the prime example of the term a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. You take your ridiculous opinion of Toney winning a few rds in a fight he was clearly losing and you generalize it to fit your moronic opinion. Your circular reasoning is as follows," Toney was winning a few rds, he ko's Michael Nunn thus he was at the greatest shape in his career at 160 and 168" and not so in the other weight classes despite all the evidence including interviews from James Toney himself. Plus you make an odd decision because in your weird little world JT looks flabby at CW and HW, he looks flabby at higher weights so he must not be in better shape despite what he states and how well he performed in the ring. What kind of moronic uneducated, opinion is this?????

You know you are wrong, because you you did not try and counter all the other evidence I presented. You just ignored it and why because you know its true and your little mind does not have the ability to counter it. Why did you not put at counter arguement. Your counter arguement is the equivalent of saying plugging your fingers in your ears and," saying I am right I am right, why because I say so". Again you only point one fight against Mclellan. You don't think a weight drained fighter cannot put in a good performance. I guess you are new to boxing because its been done by many fighters for many fights. The main reason why JT looked good despite his conditioning is because of his skills, determination, and most importantly his youth at the time. Again you use circular reasoning, Toney puts in a good performance thus he was in the best condition of his whole career. Thats not the way you put an arguement together. Did you not learn anything in your special education classes??? You throw away the evidence you don't like or ignore it. Everyones entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is not entitled to their own set of facts.
You throw away all the fights JT had trouble in and looked just plain dead tired and you only include the fights that seem on the surface to back your opinion. Don't feel too bad because 90% of the people on this site do this. You pick and few fights like JT vs Nunn (which is not actually a good choice) or Toney vs Williams and you throw away counter evidence to your arguement such as Toney vs Tiberi or Toney vs Jones, numerous interviews w/Toney talking about his numerous problems at 160 and 168, his own trainers interviews, the many boxing writers and analysts opinions and articles regarding JTs career, etc, etc. But since they do not support your opinion you disregard them. That is a sign of someone who is in reality not very intelligent, but likes to believe he is smarter than everyone else. The classic narcissist. But did you know most narcissists are not nearly as smart as they think they are and when anyone challenges there claims and they can't win they throw fits, just like you are doing. Its actually quite funny to witness.

Also, if your going to throw insults at least show some creativity behind them. I mean, come on, this is the best you are able to do. I guess your limited vocabulary doesn't allow for any real creativity. Again, I feel for you, especially since the mentally handicap already have so much to deal with. Just calm down and try one of the mental exercises and temper tantrum control exercises you have learned at the school for the mentally ******ed you attend.

You don't have to go by my word just go by James Toney's word.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/james-toney-interview.php


What is the target weight for you against Holyfield?
JT: Well, we are shooting between 208 and 212.
If you emerge victorious...
JT: (Interrupts) I will emerge victorious!
(Laughing) I had a feeling that was coming, Okay WHEN you emerge victorious, what do you see on the horizon for you? Will you compete solely as a heavyweight or will you keep both options open and perhaps unify the cruiserweight division?
JT: I am going to keep both options open because you know obviously I aint chasing Roy as he's chasing his own shadow. I will probably unify the cruiserweight division or stay at heavyweight if I can get a fight with Tyson or Lennox Lewis or whoever, but my main focus right now is Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield. I'm just excited about the whole situation because this always where I wanted to fight at is as a heavyweight and I'm excited about this. Before I turned pro I was 205 ya know and I've always struggled to make weight, but now everyone if going to see me at my best and at my full strength.



http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=472&more=1
cCline-Toney: Interview With James Toney

19.01.04 - By Ike Enwereuzor: Jacboxing.com -​

Ike: Please describe your fight where you lost to Roy Jones Jr.?

Toney: Roy was just very lucky in that fight. I wasn't in shape for that, but he still couldn't do nothing with me. I have tried to get a rematch ever since. Lets do it again, Roy! I'm tired of Roy's excuses and talking ****. I don't talk! I do my talking in the ring. Lets do it again, Roy. You know how to reach me. The Boxing Fans wants to see us do it again. In fact, I'll fight Roy for nothing, "winner takes all". I'm the best fighter in the world, not Roy Jones Jr. Roy got himself a gift at the first fight.[/quote]

This content is protected

 

I am a James Toney fan, so I cannot crow too much about watching him lose, but I thought I would come back and point out to you what a ****ing idiot you are, because of the disrespect you showed me in this thread. I was right all along, wasn't I? :smoke

 

He does see now. I've spoken to him since the fight.