Pernell Whitaker - I'M The GREATEST Defensive Fighter EVER!

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I don't agree, personally. I have it:
1. Pep 2. Whitaker 3. Mayweather
My criteria for greatness:

Spoiler: Click on this to see criteria

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My criteria for Greatness:

1. Resume:

a. Who did you beat/lose to?

b. In what manner did you beat them/lose?

c. What condition were you in?

d. What condition was your opponent in?

If you were in poor condition relatively and your opponent was in great condition, that means something.


2. Head-to-Head ability:

How good are you in hypothetical head to head match ups against the Greats in the past, and relative to your era, who did you beat to allow us to accurately gauge this? If you didn't beat Greats in prime condition, we can believe you will beat Greats but there is more weighting if you have beaten them for sure i.e Golovkin's case, Trinidad's case, Mayweather's case etc. so many examples in history.


3. Longevity:

Ring age, not actual age.

W Julio Cesar Chavez (convincing victory for Whitaker)
E Oscar De La Hoya (E for even fight, DLH prime, Whitaker past prime)
W Azumah Nelson
W Vazquez (better than Canelo)
W Buddy McGirt x 2 (level above a Cotto in H2H ability)
W Jose Luis Ramirez x 2
W Juan Nazario
W Greg Haugen

Take Sugar Ray Leonard for example, he had under 10 top names on his resume, everyone else were no one of remarkable note. He's a sure thing for around 15th all time because of the opposition he faced.

Opposition MATTERS at this upper echelon, and we're having to scrutinise fighters resumes to the nth degree.

His longevity was pretty good. 46 fights. 44 of them in 13 years. The last two were just to cash out.

 

Oscar De La Hoya is someone who I feel can beat PBF prime or at least have a completely even fight. What amazed me is how Whitaker in his not prime condition was able to get an even fight with a prime DLH.

 

I think you have to understand what does it mean to be a GREAT defensive fighter -
If you're able to be great defensively whilst being in punching range (and obviously from range), that adds points.
If you're able to be great defensively on the inside, that adds points.
If you're able to be great defensively AGAINST GREAT OPPOSITION, THAT ADDS POINTS.
If you're relying on causing resets too quickly, 'running' in more of a Lara-esque fashion, it works against you when you're compared with a defensive fighter who doesn't need to do that.

- These are what mere 'stats' do not count for. It's like saying Iniesta was better than Zidane because he has better stats. Well, Mesut Ozil has better stats than both of them, is he better than those two? No, of course not. Zidane used his game in a way that neither of them could, and likewise Whitaker was able to use his style in a way PBF couldn't.

Pernell had a more instinctive defence to add to that. For these reasons, I don't take seriously arguments in favour of Floyd.

 

That is categorically the most absurd claim I've read on this topic.

 

That is unfortunate. If he was mentally disciplined and wasn't a coke head, I agree he could've ended up carving a resume as one of the GOATs.

This is where you and I differ. I'm willing to look further into it than you are. You're drawing the line at '10 HOF's and better stats at an older age'. I thought the same thing before.

10 HOF's, who are they? What level of HOF are they? GOAT level? High level, Mid level? Low tier HOF's?
Corrales is certainly no HOF, was in awful condition for the fight. Castillo is borderline HOF. Cotto is borderline HOF (will get in on popularity). Hatton is no HOF but will probably get in on popularity. De La Hoya = 2007 version. Mosley = 2010 version - ancient neolithic artefact. Pacquiao = Semi-shot, 2015, welterweight version. These cannot be overlooked. Genaro = Not HOF, the only reason why he might be considered is because he's no longer alive. Marquez = dragged up 2 weight classes, looked small, fat and slow, outweighed by 5lbs in the weigh in - biggest farce. Who are these other HOF's?
It turns out when Floyd was prime then, he in the opinion of many, lost to a non-ATG, maybe not even HOF (borderline) in Jose Luis Castillo in the first fight.
This is the awful part, there's no at or near prime ATG or even Mid tier level HOF let alone a non-ATG high tier level HOF in 19 years!
Longevity also is not about age, but ring age. When you're fighting twice a year, especially as a defensive fighter, you're going to fall later on.

I don't agree with the idea that he was harder to hit on the ropes compared to Pea. One of Floyd's main defensive flaws was the fact that 1. he was able to be pushed to the ropes even by B graders, without too much problem 2. Increasing output on the ropes and fighting dirtier leads to Mayweather becoming static and shutting down. The problem with people watching Mayweather-Maidana for example is that they were not counting the fact that through 6 punches, 4 would miss but 2 would actually land WELL. Also, Mayweather's defence makes him vulnerable to the effective aggression of his opponents, unlike Whitaker.

Mayweather's defence can be taught if you study it properly and aren't a half wit like Broner. Whitaker's defence just cannot be taught because it's so tailored to the situation at hand, so fluid, it's an instinct. Just like how RJJ can't be taught.

 

Mayweather won 8-4 IMO and it was because DLH gassed out - the effect it has when he's a 2007 version of himself is greater. Mayweather was much faster than the bigger, slower, notably past prime DLH - Mayweather had a strong welterweights frame by then, DLH wasn't exactly a big LMW. DLH was not near the fighter he was. It's a lot easier to be a combination puncher when you're up against Gatti.
I don't necessarily strongly disagree with anyone who says prime PBF beats prime DLH tbh, it's an even fight to me so hey it's possible. Yet, the remarkable thing is that if Whitaker had discipline, even he being past prime, could be at the level of a prime DLH. Whereas we found a prime Floyd losing to Castillo in the opinion of many, and later in his career when Floyd was no longer prime, he IMO drew with Maidana in the first fight, a B grader. With any two *****s differing over which rounds they give to Maidana, making a case for a Maidana win, incidentally.

My problem is that I'm used to insulting here. Firstly it's the e-webs and not a real life construct. Secondly, there are a lot of fools at the height of denial and concerning ignorance that need to be schooled.

 

That's true. His speech is slurred. He always used to talk funny but this is now slurred funny.
This, and Benitez is proof that you can be one of the best ever defensive fighters and an all time great, but you can still develop brain problems from boxing.