Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Undefeated Lachbuster, Apr 14, 2019.
So the first Ali bout was a fix now, Liston quit like a cur and that's fact!
Blond cowboys, cab drivers mostly. Many with long necks and thin arms wearing Borrowed shorts and street shoes. Guys called baby booze and graveyard Walters. Candy McDaniels ..and such like. Nobody you heard of.
I think that Marciano vs Liston would (in their primes) have been a really good fight. While Liston is the slightly larger man and technically better, he seems to be eminently hittable to me, and he doesn't have the workrate of Marciano. I think Marciano would have had problems with a jab and grab type fighter whereas Liston likes to work up close which would have evened things up a lot.
I'll take Marciano on pedigree (to me the two KO losses to light-hitting Ali are a big strike against Liston) but, let's be honest, Sonny was a top class operator himself and if he beat Marciano nobody should be shocked.
The Boxrec page on Liston is illuminating and includes the video of one of the Williams/Liston fights:
This content is protected
It seems apparent that Liston's reach is not 84 inches since Williams' reach is listed as 80 inches and the commentators go on at length as to how Liston should fight in close to negate Williams' reach advantage. I think Williams may have been a bit of a glass cannon but its also clear that the Big Cat could clearly hit some.
Ask Kenne Simmons. He fought both. He said Marciano hit harder.
Sonny Liston was never hit as hard on the jaw as Rocky would have hit him.
until they met.
come on, nobody beats Bunyan. Although Rocky probably ate more.
Against a mediocre, slightly built lightheavyweight. Marciano got decked by the greatest Lightheavyweight (legitimately) in the heavyweight division but at least he won that fight.
The competition wasn’t the best. Probably old Joe Louis was the best old but still dangerous. According to some posters (not you) size is everything so the point stands. Have to disagree about his jab countering ability he slipped it very well. He had to otherwise his midget arms would never reach their target.
Can’t really blame Marciano that the best fighters were older can you? AJs average opponent makes Marciano’s look incredibly young. Not his fault either. Most of Marciano’s opponents were younger then him because he started so late. I’m sure you know that already.
The major problem for Rocky would have been his own style; he wasn't an all out swarmer like Frazier or Tyson, but he was very concerned with going forward. This plays right into Liston's power, both the uppercut and especially that (Peter Lorre voice) EEEvill left hook.
After having seen Marciano so rocked by Moore I mean....come on, folks. I had it wrong earlier, Rocky (all respect 100% deserved and due) wouldn't have lasted six rounds. He just got hit too much in his fights.
Credit to Rocky's champion's heart, I do believe he would have come off the canvas and fought his heart out, while I don't believe Liston really ever did that.
Why not ?
Certainly Sonny has an excellent chance against Rocky but I can’t see it as a done deal. Teddy Atlas made a great point about mike Tyson. It is an extreme view. He said Tyson had so much talent he bypassed paying his dues when things got tough. That he saw Tyson as 0-5 fighter, because each time he was “in a fight” he lost. Whilst I am not going to say Teddy is 100% accurate here, I do think this is a valid point, that he is partly right, and that this can be attributed to Sonny Liston. Folks can say a little guy broke Sonnys jaw one time and he survived to lose on points, that a big guy (who didn’t knock anyone else out of any note) made his nose bleed and rocked Sonny one time.. but It dosnt quite make the grade. He did bypass serious resistance too. Sonny was still far too used to having things too much his own way, just like Tyson, because he had such serious talent. So much so, That in the first Clay fight he was not fully prepared for resistance. And it caught everyone out. A huge upset. This must be partly why Joe Louis lost to Schmeling the first time. Sometime a guy can have too much talent. The thing is, Louis overcame this. He went on from that. Tyson and Liston never did. So really and truly, regarding reach advantages, size advantages etc etc, the one thing anybody needs to be absolute one way or another is this. Can they comeback? Have they had it tough? Have they came against stubborn fighters with no quit in them who can hurt them? On that major point, I don’t think that was certain.
Let us suppose it was on the level. Let us now look at the scenario
We have an aging Champion who had just 2 rounds of competition in the previous 2years and 3 rds in the previous 3 years.He is complacent and not in top shape he is fighting the acknowledged greatest heavyweight of all time,after a pretty even 6 rounds his gas tank is empty and his shoulder is hurting , rather than be embarrassed further he decides to quit. He is, according to you a cur.
This is a man who fought 8 rounds with a broken jaw in one fight losing only by a split decision and after, sustaining a broken nose against one of the heaviest hitters the heavyweight ranks have seen, went on to win by ko in another fight .
Now let us compare him with some others who retired in fights.
Roberto Duran in his prime and being uninjured decides he doesn't want any more and quits cold. Is he a cur?
Sam Langford retired in a couple of fights he was losing ,was he a coward?
Vitali Klitschkp retired in a fight against a much smaller light hitting opponent because e he tore his rotator cuff.Is he yellow?
Buddy McGurt fought Pernell Whitaker with the same injury and went on to lose by decision,is he braver than Vitali?
You talk nonsense mate!
Why do you think he did? I can give you the testimony of 4 men who fought him and none of them said he was the hardest hitter they fought.I can also give you the testimony of Sonny Liston who said," Williams hits as hard as me but can't take it as good".
What can you offer in rebuttal?
They all showed dog in their losses pure and simple, yes Liston proved that night he didn't have the heart of Marciano.
This is silly because Louis was a young guy still improving when he lost to Schmeling and Liston was an old guy about to decline when he lost to Ali. You have no basis to equate Liston with Tyson either ,so very flawed post.
I don.t blame him neither do I ignore the cold fact that they were! Most of Marciano's major opponents were older and everybody knows it!