Picture of Sonny Liston and Rocky Marciano

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Undefeated Lachbuster, Apr 14, 2019.



  1. JC40

    JC40 Boxing fan since 1972 Full Member

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    This thread is hilarious. Did I really read someone state the fact that the Archie Moore Marciano fought was a better heavyweight than Ali against Foreman ?

    Now we have people making statements that Marciano is pretty much as big a guy as Liston after seeing a poorly shot B & W pic shown from the waist up in which a chubby looking Marciano is wearing a polo neck and a blazer. Liston weighed THIRTY pounds heavier than Rocky in their title winning fights vs Patterson and Walcott. A very large differentiation.

    The forum seems to have been invaded by a horde of fanatical Marciano fans who love to type shout nonsense about how a 5 ft 10, 185 pound guy with a tiny wing span and a propensity to bleed like a fountain would ravage his way through heavyweights who would outweigh him by at least twenty if not thirty or forty pounds. This is despite Rocky never defeating a real live prime world class natural HEAVYWEIGHT who weighed more than 200 pounds.

    Charles and Moore are absolute all time great, legendary fighters but both were old men who did their best work at lighter weights. This is indisputable. Charles had previously been put to sleep by Jersey Joe and outpointed by various fighters in the couple of years prior to facing the Rock. He was neither prime nor at his best at heavyweight. Jersey Joe himself was the oldest heavyweight champion in history when Rocky bested him in a fight the Rock was losing before landing the Suzy Q in round 13. It wasnt like Rocky defeated some monstrous killer to win the crown.

    Rex Layne and Roly La Starza were not notable, world class heavyweights from an historical perspective. I thought I would add that as a last comment.

    Despite these comments I am still in awe of Marciano's fighting spirit, his willingness to be in great shape for all his title fights and at the fanaticism of his biggest fans.

    Cheers All.
     
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    N
    Of course you are entitled to your opinion if you believe Muhammad Ali hit harder than Rocky Marciano. Don’t let me convince you otherwise. But I want you to hold on to the notion that’s you have a minority view here.
     
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  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    And they were all shyte. Everyone knows this by now. Change the record.

    joe Louis was a legitimate #1 contender and was still better than the prime of most contenders in history from any decade you care to mention at that point. He was still better than Mac Foster at that point. He was still better than Cleveland Williams at that point. He was still better than David Bey at that point. He was still better than Trevor Berbick at that point. And by today’s standards not that old. That’s not boosting old Louis to mythical status. It’s just how it is. At that age he probably beats the guys that Liston beat to get to the title. Roy Harris And Eddie Machen? Why not?

    so when Archie Moore beat heavyweights including #1 Nino Valdes and #2 Bob Baker during his career prime that also including wins over Joey Maxim (often rated at heavyweight and beat two heavyweight champions) Harold Johnson (who beat heavyweight contenders and one champion too) it dosnt count? Years later Archie beat rated heavyweights Lavorante and Radmacher. Archie’s best years he fought both heavyweights and lightheavyweights. That was his best work.

    Charles had off nights against Rey and Maxim in his prime that he set right in rematches.
    -The Charles/Walcott series was all about tactical adjustments rather than declines.
    -Charles seemed to get raw deals in Walcott IV and Layne II.
    Charles had off nights against Valdez and Johnson but rebounded with great performances over Satterfeild and Wallace that were so spectacular he became the logical challenger.

    Charles Fought heavyweights every year he was active from 1946 to 1959. Are you going to say Charles was not at his best anytime after 1946? Do you know much about Charles before 1946? Can you tell me what he did before 1946 that was better? The guy was in the army for three years and didn’t fight anybody in 1945, 1944, 1943. Before this he was 168lb kid.

    Walcott was an all time great veteran fighter. A unique case. He’s not even old by modern standards. Are you going to tell me he looked faded or bad? He fought an incredible fight. Without knowing his age and just watching the film nobody can take away from viewing it that here is a ripe victim. Nobody.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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  4. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If you think Charles was as good or better at Heavyweight comparative to 175 you need to log out and never log back in. You've tried to push this absurd agenda before and just never learn. People really aren't this stupid.
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    When Charles was great (At his best) he was fighting both heavyweights and lightheavyweights. True or false?

    He’s at heavyweight if he’s fighting them.
     
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  6. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It's not a couple. It's every single common opponent they ever had. Many are very adamant about it. People including the likes of Ali, Norton, Young, Lyle etc.
     
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    That's the best you've got? Seriously? How shallow Hal is that. Charles is usually rated the #1 Light Heavyweight of all time now whilst he never gets remotely near a top 10 heavyweight list to say the least.

    It's not even debatable in a sea of so much that is.
     
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  8. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  9. JC40

    JC40 Boxing fan since 1972 Full Member

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    Hi Choc, you sure do like using logical fallacies such as red herrings, affirmative conclusions from negative premises, circular reasoning and other tricks of the debating trade which is why I wont spend precious time responding to your points except this one time to say that Joe Louis WAS NOT prime as I said and that Marciano never defeated a prime world class fighter who weighed over two hundred pounds. In a circular way you type a stream of hot air about Charles that avoids the simple fact that the bloke was a better 175 pounder than he was a heavyweight.

    The way you say " not old by modern standards " is also a logical fallacy. It's obvious to anyone who isnt biased that for example Joe Louis was way past his prime when he fought Marciano and that age is irrelevant compared to miles on the clock. Joe had turned pro 17 years before he fought Marciano.

    Walcott was as I said the oldest heavyweight champion in history up to that time and he lost the title after one defense. He was five years past being robbed against Louis ( in my opinion ) when he fought Marciano. That is a very long time in world class boxing terms.

    Feel free to selectively quote my response and use some more logical fallacies to cheer up the other Rockistas mate ;) .

    Cheers All.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I can’t understand your anxiety over this. Sure Charles goes down as the greatest lightheavyweight because he beat Moore at that weight, but neither he or Archie fought exclusively as lightheavyweights. So yes they were light heavyweights. And they were heavyweights. Lightheavyweight wasnt even an exclusive division until years later. Floyd Patterson was ranked at lightheavyweight too. But he won the heavyweight title. So there is no more talk of him being a great lightheavyweight. Yet when it comes to Charles he remains this lightheavyweight. I don’t know who decided on this, but like Floyd Charles fought far more heavyweights too. I’m not saying Charles was greater at one or the other. But I am saying he was at his best during a time where he was beating both heavyweights and lightheavyweights simultaneously. Because that is the truth.
     
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  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :lol:
     
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  12. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I never said Louis was prime. I said what he still had (at that time) was better than most contenders have in their primes. And I can list many contenders from any decade you would agree Louis would still beat even at that point.

    I can’t believe a good opponent (of the right size) has to be written off simply because he was no longer the best heavyweight who ever lived.

    Louis was not where Ali was at the end. Not by a long chalk. At face value he was still a strong contender.
     
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  13. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You need to take a look at the quality of Marciano's quick ko victims,better still educate yourself by reading Russell Sullivan's book on him.

    Louis was washed up, his right hand was dormant and he fought that fight with the remnants of his jab and a very occasional left hook ,a one armed 37 years old guy who said himself he was too old for the ring.
    Now we have another poster picking up on circular detours and irrelevant spin and its very gratifying to see it being highlighted and exposed so articulately.
    NB Charles had won just 2 of his last 4 fights. Walcott would have one more for his pension plan and retire.
    Louis would retire.
    I've asked you twice when Bob Baker was ever the number one ranked contender? This is the third time . Let's have an answer!
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
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  14. Wass1985

    Wass1985 Boxing Junkie booted Full Member

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    Make your mind up, quality of opponents didn't matter when you was riding Williams' dik......
     
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  15. mcvey

    mcvey Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As usual you miss the point entirely .I'm responding to a poster citing Marciano's quick ko's as evidence he was a one punch ko artist and not an attrition puncher,For quick ko's Williams has him beat all up!
     

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