"Pink Thomas-Tim Spoon" was a 1984 snoozer WBC title fight in my book...

thats true.
but holmes himself was not exactly considered an exciting champion.

when Mike tyson came along, all the talk was of him bring the excitement back that had been mising since the days of Ali and Frazier. Larry holmes was respected but he was still very much part and parcel of the dark period you describe.
Holmes needed that big hyped-up white hope Gerry cooney to draw any real glamour or excitement. holmes' fights were usually stinkers or laughable mismatches.

 

No doubt that he was not considered exciting like a Dempsey or Tyson. However, he was highly respected as an excellent champion like a Whitaker. Always in shape, courageous, giving 100% and conducting himself with dignity (inside of the ring) ... the others were out of shape, unmotivated and inconsistent.. huge difference.

 

Fair post.

 

thats one way or looking at it.
but it should also be acknowledged that in the last 2 or 3 years of holmes' reign, it was those other guys who were fighting at the higher level for the most part.
we can criticize Witherspoon, for example, of being inconsistent or whatever, but in 1984 he took on Page and Thomas.
holmes openly said he didn't want to be fighting guys like that any more.

 

Agreed.

And at the end of the day, none of those guys did have consistency or were the highest of calibers. All beatable and all had warts. Doesn't that make for all the more reason to fight them instead of the David Bey's and Rodriguez and so on?

 

We may never know for sure ( Witherspoon vs. Smith but a fix it could have been.

Spoon vs Pinky was a boring fight. Pinky did enough to win. Spoon seemed to be unwilling to engage.

 

This goes in circles. Thomas was champ for one fight. Tremendous reign. He lost to Berbick who Holmes had easily defeated. Page also lost to Berbick then to Bey who Holmes fought next and destroyed ...

There are two points being contested ... one has merit the other does not.

Without question late in hie reign Holmes decided to call his own shots. After years of being manipulated and robbed by King and the WBC he had created enough political capital to fight who he wanted and he did. That being said in addition to a few easy fights he did fight some young, big , strong, accomplished up and coming fighters. Putting aside Frank and Rodriguez he beat good young fighters.

The other question is over who he did not fight. Page lost and Holmes twice fought the men who snapped his streaks, Berbick and Bey. Holmes did fight and defeat Witherspoon. Tubbs was a non entity. Coetzee had lost to Page, Weaver, Tate, drew w Snipes and Thomas. None of these guys ever established himself as anything creating any sort of public demand.

That's that.

 

He fought Bey right after Bey beat Page.

 

Did you actually know anyone picking Bey to win the fight w/ Larry? I sure didn't. An opponent with zero foot movement that holds his left hand at his waist is the ideal opponent for the Holmes jab. You simply cannot pick a more ideal opponent than that.

This matchup was on par with Buster Mathis jr. against Mike Tyson. All these other guys around and we the boxing public got Mathis Junior and there were 10 or 12 other at least live bodies to fight instead.

 

Holmes is in danger of forfeiting the right to be called the best heavyweight in the world during his late reign.
Witherspoon had taken him to a razor close decision in May 1983, and followed up with fights against Page (who Holmes refused to fight in 1983) and Thomas.
And holmes had only fought Witherspoon thinking he'd be an easy fight. witherspoon was a novice with a disputed decision in a fight with snipes (that got awful reviews) being his best credentials.

its true that Holmes fought Bey who beat Page. but that's as far as he was willing to go, unless they paid him 5 or 10 million. for whatever reason he was willing to fight Bey for small change, but not page for a bigger purse. i can only guess it is because he considered Page more dangerous. what do you think ?

Thomas beat witherspoon and weaver more emphatically than holmes did i think.

as for being manipulated by the WBC, well they sanctioned his fights with Rodriguez and Frank, didnt they ? they were hoping he'd fight the leading contender in late '83 or early '84. it seems they expected him to fight a number 1 contender every 12 - 18 months, and pushed for that.


the fact that the men who holmes didnt fancy fighting ended up being inconsistent or putting on bad fights doesnt exonerate holmes from his meaningless fights. he ended up losing his title to a guy who'd never fought above 175 pounds before.
that puts things into perspective a bit.

its all well and good critcising all the others for flat performances and thin resumes, but after 1982 holmes' own record and performances may have been patchy too if he'd jumped in on their merry-go-round
instead of fighting Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, james smith, David bey, carl williams, Michael spinks ...... imagined he'd faced Page, Coetzee, Witherspoon 2, Thomas, weaver 2, Tubbs in 1983 - '85 .....

anyway, back on topic, i think Pinklon Thomas v Tim Witherspoon is not such a bad fight. i dont think Larry Holmes or anyone else around at the time would have looked much better against either of those two

 

The dominant memory I have of the Thomas-Witherspoon fight is of Tim flinching and retreating from the Thomas jab. I remember thinking at the time, "Witherspoon went life and death with THE Larry Holmes and he can't find a way around this guy's jab?!" He looked intimidated after the first couple rounds and that was it.

 

An who was Page, Jack Dempsey ? At best he was a poor man's Holmes and Bey beat him.

 

I remember seeing this fight on TV, live, and being struck at the ease with which Thomas handled Spoon. At the time, I thought the explanation was that Thomas was that good, and that Spoon was just another flash-in-the-pan contender. In retrospect, given what we now know about both guys, I agree that Spoon must have had a shitty night...an off night. Period.

I don't know the back story to this fight, but maybe Spoon just wasn't in good shape. His weight was fine for this fight, but that doesn't mean he was well trained. Note that shortly after this, Spoon began the "fat/overweight/undertrained" phase of his career.

What I remember as being especially interesting is that after the fight, Larry Holmes and Gerrie Coetzee met each other in ring for an interview. When asked his opinion of Thomas's victory, Coetzee's response was, "This is not good news for Larry. I fought a draw with Thomas, and Larry struggled with Witherspoon. As we saw, Thomas beat Witherspoon easily." I remember Holmes bristled, stood upright as if challenged. Very interesting interpersonal situation.