Please rate Cleveland Williams?

Excellent post. We’ll see if Mcvey offers any changes in thought.

 

In an article written by Randy Gordon called “Cleveland Williams he hit too hard for his own good” he wrote that early in his career Williams should have been fighting Jimmy Bivins, Harry Mathews, Don cockell and Roland Lastarza but had to make do with Baby booze, graveyard waters and candy McDaniels. At that time Williams was matched with Keene Simmons and Omilo Agramante who had at least tangled with fighters like Marciano and Walcott. There was every expectation that Williams could shine as the next big thing at 28-0 with a good showing at the polo Grounds in 1953 when he fought on the undercard of Marciano v Lastarza. He was fast tracked for stardom.But at that time williams had a Billy fox record. That’s why he was found out by a 10 fight novice called Sylvester jones. Who decked him twice and ended any career Williams might have had in New York. He was relaunched elsewhere and that’s when Satterfeild exposed him.

 

What an agenda!!! 6 of those fights were after the age of 35!!! 5 of them post 36.

Williams was 62-5-1 prior to being shot. guy was fighting with bullet fragments lodged in his hip which caused some partial paralysis.

Two of these losses were to ATG Liston, another a split decision vs Terrell. Another was a 4 round fight. Against Satterfield he was a last minute substitute.

If he were a Joe Louis comeback opponent he would be the second coming of Jesus.

 

Gudetama, is you haven't come across this article it's a reasonable one about The Big Cat

https://tinyswot.com/cleveland-williams-the-baddest-cat-to-never-win-the-heavyweight-title/

 

I can't speak about his luck but he suffered from bad footwork and fundamentals....with this fixed and his size, speed and power he may have been champion before being gut shot with a .357 magnum no less he must have been a hell of an athlete to get as far as he did given his lack of basics....he is an ATG puncher and a solid contender whose time came and went during Liston/Ali's era.

 

The point is these are the best guys he fought.

Williams prime was 1961 to 1963. Let’s disregard his crushing knockouts to Satterfeild and the first walloping from Liston on the grounds that Williams could not beat contenders until afterwards. And let’s forget all the other knockouts and knockdowns he suffered after his shooting. Being as generous as I can, just sticking to that period the best he fought was

Liston.
Eddie Machen
Terrell
Rischer
Miteff

He’s still only 3-2-1. Inhis prime against live opponents. There is absolutely nothing remarkable in beating Rischer since Brian London blew him away in one round. Miteff had been beaten inside the distance three times already and had won only 3 of his last 9 fights. Terrell was young and was losing one fight a year on average per year at that point without having met live opponents yet.

 

This article is telling lies.

“By 1959, he was the logical challenger to Floyd Patterson’s heavyweight crown. Patterson, however, had a weak chin, and his trainer and manager Cus D’Amato did his best to keep Patterson away from big punchers. Patterson fought the Swede Ingo Johansson instead, and was knocked out by the big Swede’s hard right hand.”

Firstly in 1959 williams was never the logical challenger. He had no rating at all. Williams had not even beat a live journeyman at that point. Secondly if D’Amato did his best to keep Patterson away from big punchers why put him in the ring with a chilling puncher like Ingo who had just knocked #1 contender Eddie Machen spark out in one round?

 

I could point out that Williams was completely shot by the time he fought 5 of those but whats the point?
You're not and never have been interested in real debate you are entirely capable of disappearing up your own rectum when you can't answer questions and I've still got several outstanding on threads that you have ignored.Basically I can't be a*sed to waste my morning with an agenda driven tool. Be content you have a braying ass agreeing with your responses

 

Williams lacks deep winning resume but anyone who watched his fights can see the skills.

Cleveland Williams was quick, skilled and hard-hitting boxer but his chin was suspect.

Win vs Terrell and draw vs Machen show us Williams had enough boxing ability to compete vs pretty good boxers.

 

Williams was shot in the guts in 64 when he was the number4 rated heavyweight, perhaps that's why he didn't collect any more scalps? Williams fought Rischer in 63 when Rischer was a ranked contender a year later Rischer beat Henry Cooper,Rischer didn't fight London until 1965 when he was no longer a contender,you of course know this but dont choose to mention it! No point continuing here.

 

I always answer you. Every time. Make another list I will answer every one of them. Again. Unfortunately what happens is once you get my answer you cannot disagree with it so you start getting upset.

Let’s ignore his early career and the point after he was gunned down then. I’m happy to debate that period too.

I am interested in debate. And I want to lose the argument to win the truth on this. Williams does fascinate me. I love to be proved wrong on him. I’d love to see more film of him too. But the record unfortunately does not stand up.

 

Yes I agree with this. There was a point after 1961 where he was almost as good as most of the best 1960s contenders.

 

"he was the logical challenger to Floyd Patterson's heavyweight crown"

I agree that this is such an off the wall statement that it calls into question the judgment and balance of this writer.

 

Damn right. No way was Williams ever a logical contender. Least of all to Patterson’s title in 1959.

 

It is not surprising that there is such a gulf between opinions here. For me, Williams is an enigma.

He was a big puncher with perhaps a shaky chin. This would almost define an exciting fighter and one who should have been a ratings magnet on TV. But off memory his TV appearances were rare until well into the sixties. He spent possibly his best years fighting second-raters in provincial venues. I have never quite understood why.

Being African-American held him back? But Liston and Machen and all sorts of others were on TV all the time. He was feared? Perhaps, but there were plenty of heavies willing to get into the ring with the more fearsome Liston. Fellows like Valdes, DeJohn, Besmanoff, and Folley somehow missed Williams but fought Liston.

So why he remained a provincial fighter out in boxing's boondocks for so long remains hard to fathom.

Williams built an impressive statistical record against basically second-tier or outright second-rate competition. It was only in the 1960's that he did better against top men, like Terrell and Machen. But even Terrell was green. The shooting no doubt had a dreadful impact, but he was 31 by that time and had been fighting for 13 years. He had only made it to about a #4 rating.

The best historical comp is someone like Tommy Gomez, a fighter with a great stats record who was blown out when he moved up against top men like Walcott.

I certainly think placing him the 22nd best all time heavyweight is a gross overrating. I don't think he has any claim off his performances to a top fifty rating, and might be even a bit shaky for a top 100 rating.

Still, an interesting figure in boxing history, and perhaps a might-have-been with better management.