Poll.. Who do you rate higher p4p. Roberto Duran or Muhammad Ali?

Not trying to say you were putting down Duran..But I took your post as trying to use that fact to elevate Ali above him. Which I think is an unfair spin on it because the fact he didnt hold both titles should not be held against him IMO. Seeing as though he proved his dominance over both the main rival title holders before they even won the belt.

 

No too mention the stomach cramps. :yep

 

Ali's best 12 wins :-
1. Liston
2. Foreman
3. Frazier
4. Patterson
5. Norton
6. Quarry
7. Young
8. Ellis
9. Lyle
10. Shavers
11. Terrell
12. Bonavena

Now from those 12, Ali only won 3 fights when he was at his peak in the mid 60s i.e. Liston, Terrell and Patterson. All his other top wins happened when he was past his peak in the 1970s after a long lay-off (Young & Shavers was when he way past it). Or if you don't think a long-lay-off affects a heavy then tell me some other examples of heavies coming back after a long-lay off and doing what Ali did in the 70s.

Duran's peak was probably up to the Leonard 1980 win ( great past it win v Barkley) . Even the Buchanon win was controversial over a low right uppercut blow from Duran after the bell at the end of the 13th round. Duran was great and fought the very best - leonard, hearns, hagler etc so he's a top 10 p4p fighter as is Ali.

 

Does Foreman count?

I mean he didnt do what Ali did but pretty impressive..albeit against an overall weaker division.

 

yes good call. he never beat the very best but he was coming back from a massive lay-off so top marks for that one. ali's style was more constant movement, george was power and just pacing himself moving slow. i know who had to be the fitter, much more conditioned style of fighting to make it work and it's not george's style but all credit to what he achieved

 

WaR.... I've always considered Ali as my #1.

Purely for the boxing brilliance of his 'first career'.. The size of Clay, combined with the athleticism, ring craft, dominance, fluidity of style and sheer magic he brought to the ring.

The return, battling the ring rust.. plus 2 of the, then current top 4 oppenents being Quarry and Bonavena was nothing less than acceptable for any man.

In the FOTC, Ali kissed the canvas, Joes left hook and absorbed a bigger belting than, IMO, any #1 contender in the history of the game.... over the FULL 15 rounds. His endevour that night was incredible. I have very few names to mention, prior or since who would stand up to Frazier and that barrage on the night.. Holyfield has convinced me as being one.

With the next few years, Ali was beaten by Norton... Defeated Foreman... Frazier on 2 subsequent occasions, Norton debatedly twice, several varying degrees of H/Ws...

'70s.. the ring career of Ali can be debated and dismissed in some ways... but the major fights he engaged in are folk law.

He always produced the goods, even when the odds were stacked against him... those goods being 'intestinal fortidude'.

Something Duran lacked at times. Duran vs SRL II was one of the early embarrassments for the game. To simply 'QUIT' is feeble.

Therefore, Ali will be a memorable fighter, for nothing less than courage. A well placed #1..

Duran, definately top 15.. exactly where in the 15, I struggle to place him.

 

If you feel that way flame thats cool..I have no problem ranking either above each other. In fact I have both very close on my list.

I think I have Ali around 10 and Duran around 8 in my personal list but I think we put more emphasis on different criteria anyway.
When you are getting to that level of greatness, its like splitting hairs really.

 

Agreed.. The criteria may be close to the same, yet personal veiws create the differences for debate.

Logically, there is no top ten in law... just the fighters we hold in the esteemed sense, for 'our' right reasons...

 

What? For a start, Frazier absorbed a bigger belting in Manila than Ali did back in 1971. He was eating contant flush shots for the last 6 minutes and still managed to stay upright. Let's not even go there on Basilio, La Motta, Fullmer, etc. There are 100s of examples of fighters absorbing far more than Ali did that night. Absolutely ridiculous comment to be honest.

 

Scouser, a few comedians around on here these days, huh.

 

A toss up, as I can see both sides of the coin.Ali for me ,is the premier heavyweight ,whereas Duran is my no4 Lightweight [not the majority vote I know]. So you could say that because he was 3 times Champ and a consensus no 1 [or 2 ] he gets it.On the other hand Duran went up through the weights picking up titles as he went a 5 7" ex lightweight battling on even terms with the likes of Hagler and, big middles like Barkley when Roberto was clearly past his best.There again Ali had no moments of " No Mas",his effort against Holmes may have been pitiful and painful[especially to him], but he didn't flinch from the punishment,though he knew in the first round he was in trouble. Because he never quit I give Ali the Kudos.Well this week anyway,it is his Birthday after all.

 

Thanks Cobra this is exactly what I joined Eastside for:thumbsup. Insightful/concise assessment of the fight game/fighters. I am going to find more of Duran's 70's fights & not judge him SOLELY by what I saw in the early/mid 80's.

Seems that I only saw Duran's 'second career' & you gave no 'excuses' for his loses as many tend to do when Duran is mentioned.
Unfotunately I have gone years without appreciating his seemingly universal greatness(the first thing I & many others think of is 'NO MAS' & Hearns annihilation) & will do some serious reevaluating on the man.

The Ring Magazine & knowledgable boxing fans like yourself can't be that delusional about one fighter. Thanks.

 

But remember The Ring has been proven to takes bribes from DKP and is currently owned (partly?) by de la Hoya's promotional group, I believe.

To quote Teddy Bremner;

"If 'The Ring' is the bible (of boxing), then maybe boxing needs a New Testament."

 

No problem.

Pretty much all of his prime fights are worth watching, but some standouts are the series with DeJesus, his performance against Palomino at 147, taking the title from Buchanan (Duran hadn't reached his absolute best by this time, but still impressive to see him basically dominate a great fighter like Buchanan), and the defenses against Ishimatsu, Lampkin, and Viruet among others. Early fights before he became champion against former titleholder Hiroshi Kobayashi and future champ Ernesto Marcel are also excellent.

Duran was as complete a fighter as they come. 2nd to none at fighting on the inside, great ability to close the distance, superb defense, virtually everything, Duran had it.

 

I went onto Monte Cox's website, just to get his opinion on the topic because I consider him very well informed and his views well thought out. In any event, here's his p4p list.
Personally I'm surprised he has heavweights on the list because my understanding was that the p4p list was created to recognize the feats of smaller fighters, particularly SRR.


All Time Pound 4 Pound


Ray Robinson
Joe Gans
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Sam Langford
Benny Leonard
Roberto Duran
Ray Leonard

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/divisional_ratings.html