Flavor, honestly. Does anyone else feel this way? I feel he was far greater before his comeback, and was more of an actual boxer. He later became a human punching bag who relied far too much on his chin and borderline machoist ego and even celebrity status to get him through fights. Who really tested Ali before he was forced out of boxing? No one, really. And that's not to say that his competition was weak. No, it was amazing. He was simply that good. After coming back in 1970 his career became far more smoke and mirrors, and in some cases a sideshow act. There was plenty of weak opposition after Ali's comeback. In his first career? Not so much. What did he encounter after 1970 that he didn't before 1967? The wiley veteran. The power punching monster. The skilled technical marvel. The stand up European. The iron chin. He just got away with far too much later on. He became as big, so much larger than the sport. Holding Frazier behind the head in their second fight. Fighting Foreman in a totally alien and hostile enviroment with the entire continent of Africa behind him. Foreman was so paranoid he was having his own food flown in. This loss broke him for the better part of a decade. Robberies and or close calls in Norton III, Young, Shavers, depending on how you look at it. Being behind against Lyle and then receiving a questionable stoppage, even though he was allowed to take inhuman abuse throughout his comeback.
Also... People cite Foreman's opposition during his comeback as garbage. That the fighters he fought to convince the world he was still a major part of the game were so far below him as to note even warrant consideration. And Ali didn't do this shortly after coming back against JURGEN BLIN? Being taken 12 with a vastly overweight Buster Mathis? Chuck Wepner, Rudi Lubbers. Later on, Coopman & Evangelista, among others. Thanks, I'd take Axel Schulz over any of them.
I thought Ali was great against Foreman, he was hitting hard and in shape, but Foreman was disappointing. I dont understand the "Africa environment" excuses though. Truth is, Ali had the entire boxing world saying Foreman would kill him. Foreman just fought like an amateurish fool, no one else to blame but himself. (Tim Witherspoon and Marvin Hagler won fights in the dark heart of London, England in front of stadia full of screaming hostile natives. It's no excuse.) Ali also looked good against Norton (2nd fight) and defeated good 70s fighters such as Ellis and Quarry, fairly easily. But, yes, he was better back in '65-'67, before American politics spoiled the sanctity of the world's heavyweight championship. I'm not as impressed by his opposition as some seem to be, but I dont think any other heavyweight champion beat better fighters.
True, on Hagler and Witherspoon. But, neither let the climate of those environments tear into them the way Foreman did. Hagler was hungry and had been screwed more than once before when he went on a destruct and destroy mission against Minter. It's no exaggeration that Foreman was so affected by what happened in Africa that it haunted him for years afterwards. He was a young impressionable kid, basically, with dilusions of invulnerability. Going to happen when you literally believe that African witch doctors are cursing you. Ali was still amazing in the 70's, and one of the greatest heavies of all time... I just don't like how he compares to the brilliance of his first career.
Anyone ever see When We Were Kings? Dundee makes it well known that Ali was supposedly in the best shape of his comeback career for that fight. His posse and himself literally had nothing to do down there except hang around in gyms all day.
He did. It came at a far greater cost in the 70's, and was done with far more difficulty. That's my point.
Yes, he was at his prime in the 60's - no news there. But in the first half of the 70's he still looked quite impressive many times. He toyed with good contenders like Quarry and Ellis, and had impressive wins against Foreman and Frazier. Very few fighters would perform as well as he did against the machine that was Frazier in FOTC and he controlled him superbly in their second fight and showed true heart in Manilla. His questionable perfomances almost all came in the latter part of the 70's when he was getting old and had had some really tough fights. As for all the excuses about his KO of Foreman, they´re just pathetic. Foreman came in with supreme confidence and the animosity wasn't as bad as the one Ali faced in the 60's. The "drugged water" is something I really can't believe is being brought up, because it's so pathetic. Is there ANY proof for this whatsoever, except that Foreman lost? Ali's much talked about holding of Frazier in their second fight is overexaggerated IMO. I'll probably quote what the ref, Tony Perez, said about it sometime, because I think he made a lot of sense. All in all Ali met and defeated all there was in the 70's (more than you can say for Frazier for example), coming from a long lay-off and being 30+ for the most part of the decade. That says a lot for me. Of course some of them was tomato cans, but he took on and beat all comers. Can't really do more than that.
Sorry. My bad. It has been brought up before, but you only said he was paranoid. Mayb he was. But Ali and his people sure were paranoid before the Liston fight and we all know how that went. Foreman looks fit and focused to me before he starts to tire and lose confidence in his punches. The thing that did him in psychologically was not the crowd, but having Ali right were he wanted him and still not doing any apparent damage. For someone who's so reliant on his destructive punching power that must be the ultimate nightmare.
Gil Clancy put the blame clearly on Foreman and his team. He said they had him chopping wood all the time as well as bashing the heavybag - two things according to Gil that George needed very little of. He said his punches sure got harder, when he hit the bag it was like an explosion, but they also got wider and slower. Sour grapes or not i have no idea.
Foreman brought the breed of dog that the military used in Africa to attack and maul the civilians. They hated him down there. HATED him. All the while idolizing Ali as if he was a living god. It's telling that Foreman is still ****ed in the head because of his trip down there to this day.
He was mentally ****ed up because of the manner he lost, not because he was disliked. He wasn't threatened or abused in any way. Compare that to how Johnson and Ali was received when they were at their most impopular. Somebody shot at Ali (probably just to scare him, though, he wasn't hurt) when he was training for the first Quarry fight, and he still disposed of Quarry. All those excuses came from Foreman himself because he couldn't handle the loss and now somehow they have became the truth for many people. Foreman lost. Simple as that.
I do get what Russell is saying. Ali, particularly after about '75 or so, outlasted the other guy rather than outfought him. He relied on inhuman toughness and an unmatched will to win, many times. In the 60's, he showcased his athletic ability. In the mid to late 70's, it was his intangibles that came to the fore. At the end of the day, it's all good. Few fighters have had such a blend of natural physical talents and intangibles he did he. I do think, as do most, that he should have quit after Frazier 3. That would have been the perfect time to call it quits.