Pound-for-pound list

Just to avoid confusing Rumsfeld, this is a separate thread for the same subject. If you haven't already, make sure you post your top ten (just ten) in his thread; he'll count them up and we'll have a consensus.

I thought I'd post my top seventeen here with a bit of reasoning. The top ten are set in stone, I think, while the next seven are definites but could be rearranged:

1. Henry Armstrong - this man should be rated no less than #3. Armstrong, in the years before '37, beat numerous rated contenders. After he lost the title in 1940, he beat even more rated contenders. The numbers for his pre and post reign efforts would be enough to secure him a #30 place on their own (going down in history as a Burley-esque 'best never to win a title' legend) - but the bulk of his legacy is based around a superhuman three year run where he went 59-1-1 with 51 knockouts over three weight divisions. Infact, both the loss and draw were controversial; in my mind, Armstrong really went 61-0, won the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight titles, and made nineteen defences, eighteen of those at welterweight. Armstrong was a head-to-head featherweight terror, a great lightweight and the record holder for most welterweight title defences; in three years. Including the rest of his career, he beat more 'name' fighters than Ray Robinson, Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore.

2. Harry Greb - maybe the only fighter who was more a hurricane than even Armstrong. If, by my own concession, there's an anomaly in my top ten, it's why I don't rate Greb #1. I can't find a reason other than the uncertainty of many of his bouts, but by any account, Greb dominated his era and performed extraordinarily against heavier fighters. The most accomplished middleweight by far, and probably more than a challenge for any light heavyweight, ever. Who else could go 45-0 in one year?

3. Ray Robinson - most people's #1, and understandably. Robinson was known as the best in an era that contained Pep, Louis, Charles, Williams and Ortiz. He was a phenomenon who, even in his own time, was acknowledged as perhaps the best gloved fighter ever. His record, littered with rated victims, backs it all up; the best all-time welterweight is also rated by many as the best filmed middleweight, the title of which he won five times in the slowing half of his career.

4. Sam Langford - here's another one with a lot of uncertainty. What is clear is that Langford spent three quarters of his career with the odds stacked against him; he fought fighters who were taller and heavier, and if he didn't, he was usually held back from giving it his all. Fact; Langford was the most feared fighter of his generation and has gone down in history as the best to never win a title. His record reads a who's who of great lightweights and heavyweights and all the ones in between.

5. Benny Leonard - this is absolute lowest I'll rate this man, because he was a genuine superstar of a strong division. Willie Pep later dominated his division in similar fashion, except Leonard's opposition was undoubtedly stronger on the whole - Britton, Lewis, Kansas, Welsh, Ritchie, Dundee, Kilbane, White, Tendler - Leonard beat all these along with anyone else who stepped anywhere near the 135lbs mark.

6. Ezzard Charles - from '46 to '50, Charles went on an Armstrong-esque run, resisting all challenges and avenging losses all over. One man beat him, and that was Elmer Ray; hard punching heavyweight, who won a very disputed decision and was later knocked out as a returned favour. Over the course of Charles' career, he racked up a list of victories more varied and more impressive than Ray Robinson's; Archie Moore was beaten three times; Joey Maxim, five times. Jimmy Bivins four times, Jersey Joe Walcott and Charley Burley, twice each.

7. Willie Pep - as mentioned before, Pep dominated his division. He really, really did; 135-1-1 was his record going into the first Saddler fight, before which he'd already suffered from a terrible plane crash, and it is documented that he was not the same fighter. Nevertheless, he avenged the loss and, while losing the next two to Saddler, none were as convincing. In the '40s, Pep controlled the featherweight division like Robinson controlled the welterweights, and beat many more top ten opponents than most people realise.

8. Roberto Duran - anything after his lightweight run was just a bonus - seven years as champion and Duran was already rated alongside Benny Leonard and Joe Gans as one of the best ever lightweights. Stepping up and beating one of the very best welterweights after a career's worth record of 72-1 just capped it off nicely. Add to that a junior middleweight title and then a middleweight title in '89, twenty one years into his career and at a height disadvantage of six inches.

9. Archie Moore - in the modern era (post '30?) there hasn't been a fighter who's came back from as many beatings, setbacks and bouts of poverty to reign as champion in his old age as Archie Moore. He tops the list as knockout king, and flourished in an unnatural way in his later years - he was still defending his title at a proposed forty four years of age, and after such a hectic career that seems inhuman to me, especially considering Moore was jumping weight constantly.

10. Barney Ross - a real war hero, but that doesn't matter on this list. Ross takes this spot for me because of his utter dominance over fellow greats. From 135 to 147, Ross was boss of Canzoneri, McLarnin, Petrolle and Garcia, retiring without ever being stopped. In a remarkably short career of just nine years, Ross bowed out with a remarkably tidy record for the era of 72-4-3 because he was just brilliant.


11. Mickey Walker
12. Jimmy McLarnin
13. Joe Gans
14. Bob Fitzsimmons
15. Muhammad Ali
16. Joe Louis
17. Tony Canzoneri