Pre_Ring Magazine Year-end heavyweight ratings 1882-1922

Not sure. But both Jeffries and Griffin have talked about it.

 

I've seen mistakes there before. Historic records aren't their priority sometimes they'll fix then, sometimes not when you point them out

 

Adam Pollack covers the bout over several pages and my reading is he is convinced it took place.

Some key quotes in my judgment from In the Ring with James J. Jeffries by Adam Pollack:

"James J. Jeffries' first professional bout was against a black boxer named Hank Griffin."

"No one has ever located a primary source news account of the Jeffries-Griffin bout."

"An 1898 San Francisco Chronicle reproduction of Jeffries' record lists an 1893 fight with Hank Griffin as a 15 round knockout victory for Jeffries."

"That was the earliest listing of the fight."

"In May 1899, Jeffries told the earliest known printed account of the Griffin bout."

Jeffries accounts of the fight over the years were "consistent"

Eugene Van Court gave an account of the fight in 1901. Adam says he was "likely" at the bout.

"Van Court's account suggests that Jeffries had been doing some boxing before taking on Griffin."

"Jeffries said that he made between $400 and $500 for the fight."

Adam explains Jeff was made to promise not to fight again by his mother until he was of age. (21 at the time) He obeyed.

Previously, "At the Los Angeles Athletic Club (LAAC), Jeff boxed in occasional exhibition bouts."

Jeffries was training under Billy Gallagher and later De Witt Van Court.

"As the LAAC instructor, Gallagher organized Friday night smokers likely held at the Los Angeles theatre across the street."

"The Jeffries-Griffin bout likely took place at one of these smokers."

 

My take after reading Adam Pollack's biography of Jeffries is that the evidence is pretty strong that the Jeffries-Griffin bout took place.

As for Jeffries-Childs, those "smoker exhibitions" might explain such a bout.

As I posted earlier, reform groups were pressuring newspapers not to cover boxing matches, and this at a time, off the papers I have read, when sports coverage was rather limited at best.

 

I agree, from my own experience, the Los Angeles newspapers at the time (mid 1890s) just weren't the best ones covering boxing.

As an example, on Oct 29, 1895, there were three exhibitions, Jeffries-Lorraine, Dempsey-Pierce, Gallagher-Choynski. LA Evening Express had two small paragraphs telling about them, LA Times had a one-column write-up about 1/4 of page's height, only LA Herald had a write-up that spanned over 1 full column (with two images).

Nov 14, 1894, several exhibitions, LA Evening Express 1 column about 1/3 of page's height, LA Herald one column about 2/3 page height, LA Times one column about 1/4 page height.

I don't recall there being weekly boxing write-ups with gossips and summaries of events of last week either during that decade in LA newspapers, unlike the San Francisco newspapers, for example.

 

After looking at various accounts and versions of this fight, I think it's likely that the fight happened, but the date and exact result are questionable. I think the fight most likely took place sometime between 1893 and 1896, with Jeffries winning by knockout in between 14 and 17 rounds. So around September 1895 would be a good guess, with KO 15 the likely outcome. Griffin may have had to bow out with an injury of some sort, making it (by more modern thinking) a TKO 15.

As an aside, I'm old enough to remember any stoppage being more or less officially listed as a KO in many records. My Granddaughter's here, making me a birthday cake today. 98, and on my way to 100+! BUT, if she puts 98 candles on that cake and I try to blow them all out, I might not even make it to 99!

 

Well, happy birthday.

If all the candles were put on my birthday cake and lit, it would look like the Chicago fire, but you have me bettered by quite a bit.

again happy birthday and best wishes

 

I've made a very preliminary attempt to shed some light on the 1870's, for my own information. So far I've only gotten to World Champions and their top 3 contenders. The 1870's are not easy to figure out. I'm sure I'll change some of these after more research and thought. I started with 1870, because I believe that year produced the first actual World Champion (Jem Mace). I had a lot of respect for Matt Donnellon and what he accomplished from 1880-1923. That has increased to tons of respect, for Matt Donnellon, after trying this.

I've tried to think the way some rating board would have viewed things in the 1870's. This, of course, being the 1870's, is primarily concerned with London Prize Ring Rules (Bare Knuckle Fighting). It's quite possible that I got confused and made some errors. (I've had that tendency for about the last 20 years but it seems to be happening to me more lately.)

I thought I'd share what I've worked out so far (possible errors and all)...

1870
Champion: JEM MACE
1-Contender: Tom Allen
2-Contender: Joe Coburn
3-Contender: Mike McCoole

1871
Champion: Jem Mace
1-Contender: TOM ALLEN
2-Contender: Mike McCoole
3-Contender: Joe Coburn

1872 (Jem Mace abandoned title?)
Champion: Tom Allen
1-Contender: MIKE MCCOOLE
2-Contender: Joe Goss
3-Contender: Joe Coburn

1873
Champion: Tom Allen
1-Contender: Mike McCoole
2-Contender: Joe Goss
3-Contender: Ben Hogan

1874
Champion: Tom Allen
1-Contender: JOE GOSS
2-Contender: Jack Knifton
3-Contender: Ben Hogan

1875
Champion: Tom Allen
1-Contender: Joe Goss
2-Contender: Jack Knifton
3-Contender: Ben Hogan

1876
Champion: Joe Goss
1-Contender: Tom Allen
2-Contender: Charles Smith
3-Contender: Jack Knifton

1877
Champion: Joe Goss
1-Contender: Tom Allen
2-Contender: JACK KNIFTON
3-Contender: Charles Smith

1878
Champion: Joe Goss
1-Contender: Tom Allen
2-Contender: Morris Grant
3-Contender: Jack Knifton

1879
Champion: Joe Goss
1-Contender: Tom Allen
2-Contender: Morris Grant
3-Contender: Paddy Ryan

 

Great effort. The following is from the Police Gazette on 22nd May 1880, and may be of some use:

"Tom Allen, the English pugilist, then challenged McCoole to fight for $1,000. The fight took place at Foster Island, St. Louis, on August 15, 1869. Allen beat McCoole's face to a jelly and won the fight, but McCoole was declared the winner on an alleged foul. Allen won several fights, beating Bill Davis and others, but Ned O'Baldwin, the Irish giant, Joe Wormbald and Jim Mace had come to America and all of them claimed to be champions. Mace and Allen fought for the championship and $5,000 at Kennerville, New Orleans, on May 10, 1870. Mace won in 10 rounds, 44 minutes.

The next fight for the championship was between Jim Mace and Joe Coburn. These rival champions met in a ring at Port Cover, Canada, May 11, 1872. The pugilists were in the ring one hour and seventeen minutes and never struck a blow. On May 31, 1871, Mace and Coburn did fight for the championship at New Orleans. The fight lasted 3 hours and 38 minutes, 12 rounds were fought and the fight ended in a draw. Coburn then for the second time retired from the ring.

O'Baldwin aud Mace were then matched for the championship. They met in a ring at Collier Station, August 15, 1872, but neither would agree to a referee. O'Baldwin retired from the ring and Tom Allen challenged Jim Mace, Coburn and McCoole. The latter accepted and a match was arranged. The fight took place at St. Louis, and Allen won in seven rounds, lasting 20 minutes.

Ben Hogan and Tom Allen then made a match for the title and met at Omaha, Neb. The fight ended in a wrangle, although Allen was winning. Jim Mace then went to England, and on his return to America brought Joe Goss with him. Goss was matched to tight Tom Allen for $2,000 and the championship. The fight took place in Kentucky. The pugilists fought in two rings, the first being erected in Kent and the second in Boone county, Twenty-one rounds were fought in 53 minutes, and Goss was declared the winner.

Johnny Dwyer, of Brooklyn, then challenged Allen. The latter, with Goss, was under bonds for fighting in Kentucky. Allen left quietly for England, and Goss served out his time. The fight between Allen and Goss took place on Sept. 7, 1876.

Since then only one battle has been fought for the championship. It was between Jimmy Elliott, of Brooklyn, and Johnny Dwyer. It took place last spring in Canada, and Dwyer won easily. Dwyer had never fought in the ring according to the rules, nevertheless he proved that he was a great pugilist. He whipped Elliott in 12 rounds in 12 minutes. Dwyer was then the champion, and he again challenged Goss, Ryan, Elliott and Tom Allen, but no one accepted. He was appointed Clerk in Judge Courtney's Court. Brooklyn, in January of this year, and retired from the ring, leaving Joe Goss, Jimmy Elliott and Paddy Ryan, all claiming the championship.

Goss, since he fought Allen, has been living quite jolly ani grown heavy in flesh. He has purchased the Atlantic Hotel at Fort Hamilton, New York, and has been training for the last four weeks under the mentorship of Jem Turner, one of the noted middle-weight pugilists. He is up at 5 o'clock every morning and training hard for the coming mill. Goss expects-to enter the ring weighing 175 pounds. He will be seconded in the coming fight by Barney Aaron and Dooney Harris. Ryan stands 6 feet 1 inch in height, and will weigh 186 pounds in condition. He is in every sense of the word a giant and is possessed of great strength, and a scientific boxer. Judging from his height and weight and great muscular development, he should be able to whip any man in the world. He has never fought in the ring, but he has displayed great pugilistic ability in numerous rough-and-tumble fights. He has plenty of backers and the Hibernian element look upon him as their champion, and many appear to think he will whip Goss easily.

About a year ago Ryan was matched to tight Johnny Doyle, of Brooklyn, for $2,000 and the championship. All the stakes were posted, but in the interim Ryan got into a street fight in Brooklyn, and was stabbed and had his teeth knocked out. His backer, Judge Griffith, of Troy, N.Y.. was afraid that Ryan's injuries would interfere with him, refused to go on with the match, and it was broken off by Ryan's backers refusing to select a stakeholder. Ryan belongs to the American Order of Hibernians and it is understood a select picked body of this organization will accompany him from Buffalo to Canada on May 17 to see that he has fair play. One thing is against Ryan in the ensuing battle. He is badly injured and is obliged to wear a truss. Ryan has not yet commenced to train. He has leased a bar-room on Chatham square. New York, and the place is filled nightly with sporting men.

Ryan says he can not only whip Goss, but any man in the world. Ryan strikes a powerful blow and offers to bet that he can fell a bullock with one hand. He said to a friend recently that he would knock Goss out of time inside of twenty minutes if the latter will only stand up and fight him. The pugilists and their backers are eager to bring the fight off satisfactorily, and without the authorities at Buffalo to interfere, there will be no stumbling block placed In the way of the proposed fight. All the principal ring-goers, and what is known as the gang, are with Goss, the same parties who won the fight for him at Kentucky when he fought Allen. Many of them have, like the writer, witnessed all the mills for the past eighteen years. The same sporting men were behind Mace when he fought Alien and was to fight O'Baldwin. Several of them intimate that Goss will blind the lrish infant, as they style Ryan, in half an hour.

At the time Ryan was matched to tight Dwyer. Goss was Ryan's trainer, and Goss claims he taught him a few tricks, but states that he could never teach Ryan to be clever, because he is only a school boy at the fighting business. Goss has won and lost numerous battles in the ring, and he has proved himself to be a first-class pugilist. The fight will no doubt take place, and will prove a stubborn and desperate battle If Ryan does not whip Goss quickly, Goss will him. Ryan's only chance of whipping the Veteran is by a chance blow."

 

I believe Sam Berger was considered a real contender in 1906. He lost to Kaufman, but before that arguably beat O’Brien in their draw, and a rematch between them was still being proposed into 1907.

I would certainly put him above Ruhlin.

 

Lots of early names I'm not familiar with;
Elliott
Woodson
Miller
Hadley
Grant
Great addition for reference purposes!

 

Cyber Boxing Zone has Jack Knifton's first fight as being in 1876, but you have him listed from 1874.