Prime Calzaghe had more handspeed than prime RJJ

Joe, only four years younger, not exactly in his prime either, and more amateur and pro fights under his belt, UD Roy. :good Fixed

 

I never said Calzaghe had better hand speed, but he did have faster hands, and put great combinations together.

Roy Jones jr has two very good wins over a green Hopkins, and over a severely weight drained (overrated) James Toney, whilst he was abusing anabolic steroids to gain an unfair advantage. I think Calzaghe is no doubt capable of beating the Toney that Roy fought. Joe has very good wins over Kessler and Hopkins (who's never been beaten at LHW since), and Chris Eubank, he also beat good fighters like Bika, Lacy and Reid, and was world champion for 10 years retiring undefeated. He was a clean fighter, never failed a drugs test, and proved he could fight through adversity and find a way to win.

Yet we have to hear about Roy Jones jr being 'superman', because he used to fight with his hands down, and shake his bum, dance around and cherry-picked a paper title over a slow feather fisted plodder in Ruiz. He looked great when he was abusing steroids and dominating taxi-drivers, and when he stepped up his competition at LHW as a clean fighter against the likes of Tarver and Johnson, he got exposed for having P4P one of the worst glass jaws in history. Calzaghe was shot and beyond his prime weight when he fought Roy, and destroyed him in a boxing contest. Jones was coming off a 3 fight win streak, feasting on his usual diet of bums and overmatched opponents, when he stepped up again and fought Joe he got annihilated.

 

no way did Joe have more handspeed than Roy.

 

Another great thread.

Calzaghe vs Jones:

Joe was only four years younger, so the **** what? It wouldn't have mattered if Joe had've been 26, 36, 46, or 86. That's not the point. The point is, Roy Jones was finished as a fighter FOUR YEARS BEFORE HE FOUGHT JOE! That's the point! Roy lost 20 pounds, some of which was actual muscle, in just a few months after almost 50 fights, and along with two crushing defeats, it killed his career. He lost his reflexes, timing, punch resistance, but most of all, his confidence.

Joe's victory over Roy is completely pointless. You have all the evidence you need staring you in the face.

1. As i've just pointed out, Tarver and Johnson knocked him out in 2004 when he was 35.

2. In Joe's 2007 Autobiography he says "Roy was a legend, but a win now would be completely POINTLESS, HE'S NOT THE SAME FIGHTER AS HE WAS, AFTER GETTING KNOCKED OUT TWICE."

3. FOUR years after the Tarver and Johnson fights, he fights Joe in Nov 2008, 2 months before his 40th birthday. Joe easily beat him.

4. Just 12 months later, Danny Green knocked him out in a single round.

So shall we give Joe a medal?

At 34 Roy's Knocked out by Johnson, who then goes on to lose to Clinton Woods. Then over four years later at nearly 40 Joe beats him on points. WOWEE! He beats him on points four years after Johnson's knocked him cold. Then just 12 months later, Green knocks him out at nearly 41, in just one round.

If you digest all of the above information, it just looks bad on Joe. After the fight he called himself "The Legend Killer" The guy's a joke!

Also, just a year prior to the fight with Roy in 2007 before he fought Kessler, he said to an interviewer "I'm feeling at the top of my game right now. I haven't got the power that I used to have because of my hands, but overall I'm a much better fighter now at 35, than when I was 25." The interviewer (can't remember who it was) was surprised and said "really?" Joe said "Yeah! This version of Joe Calzaghe would kick the Eubank's version of Joe Calzaghe's ass all around the ring" There's not a doubt in my mind. I'm a much better fighter and I feel I'm at my best right now!"

The above is a direct quote, and Joe spoke in third person. Just 12 months later he faced Roy. I'm not saying Joe wasn't a great fighter, he clearly was as everyone knows, but the victory over Roy was pointless at that stage. In the build up to Joe's fight with Roy, a journalist asked Joe about his comments in his book, regarding Roy being finished as a fighter. Joe responded by saying "Well, I did say that, but since then, Roy's come back and he's had three great wins and he's back to his best."

Laughable really. Three great wins? Ajamu (who?) Hanshaw (who?) and Tito who couldn't make 170 and hadn't fought for three years! Back to his best? 2 months away from his 40th Birthday? How did Joe say that with a straight face?

He cashed in his chips and that's all there is to say. What happened in 2008 was completely pointless and has absolutely no bearing of would have happened had they fought much earlier.

Also, for all of the morons out there who say he cherry picked Ruiz. You couldn't be more wrong. Evander turned down and opportunity in 98, and just prior to Evander's third fight with Ruiz, Roy and his advisor Murad Muhammad, met with Evander and his team. They verbally agreed on a fight if Holy beat Ruiz. But Holy lost to Ruiz, and then afterwards they approached Roy and asked about the fight. Roy turned the fight down, because he didn't think he's get any credit at that point after John Ruiz had just beaten him. Evander didn't have a belt, Ruiz did. So, he turned down Holy and asked Murrad to make a fight with Ruiz instead.

So he didn't cherry pick him at all. He went up to around 200 pounds, not having a clue on how it would affect him, and on the night of the fight, he was still outweighted by a further 25 pounds. Ruiz wasn't a great fighter, but It was a big risk for Roy to take. A lot of fighters and journalists had Roy to lose that fight. If Andre Ward put on 20 pounds to fight a top ten ranked Heavy or a Champion, he would get huge credit.

Regarding Roy's so called glass jaw, Roy has never ever had a great chin like Joe, but he didn't have a glass jaw before he came back to 175. Again, Ruiz was over 16 stone and he caught him with some good shots. He completely lost all of his punch resistance after his weight loss and his defeats to Tarver and Johnson, and now he certainly has a glass jaw.

Finally his opposition:

You're always going to pick his record apart if you want to hate.

If you've got enough spare time to come on here to hate on him, then spend that time by doing the following.

Go and look at Roy's opponents, and look at who they fought before they fought Roy. Afterwards, go and look at who they went on to fight and beat afterwards. It makes very interesting reading.

 

well thats fair enough. put calzaghe in the ring now hes shot v. a top SM or LH, and he would get knocked out. and ketchupfaced.

Doesnt mean he had a glass jaw in his prime either.

 

As I recall the US media were predicting an easy win for Lacy and he was unbeaten going into the fight, I agree these days he is pretty shot but I mentioned Lacy to make the point that even if someone doesn't hit hard if they throw lots more shots to make up for it they can still be effective.
And for the record as much as I not a big fan of Lacy showed amazing heart and guts in the Calzaghe fight held a world title which he defended succesfully 4 times before Calzaghe beat him, so to call him a chump is a bit silly really unless of course your boxing career was more successful?

 

Grey,

That was a great performance against Lacy. But the U.S. Media predicted an easy win for Jeff, basically because they didn't really know anything about Joe. They didn't respect him as a fighter, and all they saw was Jeff's great left hook. Joe had only been shown on U.S. TV a handful of times. I think the first fight was the Rick Thornberry fight in the late 90's, and he failed to impress.

No World Champion is a chump, but Roy fought better fighters than Joe, but gets more stick. Lacy, Kessler, Reid, Eubank etc were all good- very good wins, yet all Roy ever did was fight janitors and cops etc. It's a joke.

Back to the handspeed issue, It's Roy's repertoire of punches at speed that are amazing. Joe was certainly fast, but he didn't have Roy's repertoire. Roy would fire a rapid 5 punch combo, that would consist of a double left hook to the body, a left handed uppercut, followed by a right hook to the body and a right handed uppercut.

The uppercut is one of the rarest punchers used. Even top class elite fighters hardly throw them them often. Roy would always use them in combos, or even use them as lead shots, which was amazing. I've never seen any other fighter throw uppercuts in a combo, off of each hand. So for me, it's not just his speed, it's his repertoire, power and precision. That knockout of Vinny Paz was unbelievable. Now you're gonna get people saying, Vinny Paz was rubbish etc, it was an easy win, but go and take a look at that finish.

There's nobody else that could finish a guy like that, no matter what level the opponent was at. That combination was incredible! The way he threw the shots whilst walking forward, and the way he had to adjust himself, and the power of the shots was remarkable. Nobody else has ever knocked a guy out with a 6 punch combo that includes 3 uppercuts, two off one hand, with one from the other.

Meldrick Taylor may have been faster than Roy, but again he hadn't got the variation that Roy had.

 

Roy Jones Junior was absoluely awesome some of the stuff he did in some of his fights in his prime was almost seemingly physically impossible no soubt he was a brilliant brilliant fighter with knockout power, I agree about the uppercuts too and his leaping hooks and hooks thrown from a crouch were like something out of a Hollywood movies special effects

I wish he would call it day now though he surely can't need the money and he has a family and seems like a really nice guy and I would hate to see him end up brain damaged.

I have to laugh at the shoe shine punch video someone posted saying that is exactly what Calzaghe does if that was the case how come Lacy looked like both eyes were almost shut and cut up.

I am not in agreement that Calzaghe was faster anyway
and agree he pawed a bit with his punches later in his career but hey like you say it sparked a good debate.

Is anyone looking forward to the Froch Vs Bute match? reckon it will be a good match, I missed Wards match vs Bikia and didn't bother watching it until today as from the scorecards it looked lopsided but he gave Ward ahard fight worth watching if anyone hasn't already.

 

Gray,

good post, I honestly don't think he needs the money, it's just that he can't let go. I'm looking forward to Carl's fight with Bute. I can't see Carl winning that, if i'm honest. Andre Ward vs Bute would be a good fight. I'm sure it'll happen at some point.

 

Loudon - great to hear a newcomer talk sense

 

A course a lot of the stuff he did seemed physically impossible, he was abusing steroids throughout his career, which gave him massive advantages over the fighters that he faced. I just don't understand how you can ignore something as important as anabolic steroids, it's disgraceful in a brutal sport like boxing.

It's only fair to rate Roy's power after his fight with Richard Hall, where we can establish that he was a clean fighter, which decent fighters did he KO? He fought a string of taxi drivers, until he faced Ruiz, who was a paper titlist at HW, and pretty much tailor made for Roy, then the rest is history. When he came back down to LHW, he won a disputed decision against Tarver and got sparked in the rematch.

No-one does, I think he has serious money problems unfortunately.


To Loudon, I also want to know what you think about the fact that Roy Jones was abusing anabolic steroids in his prime.

 

I never knew Roy Jones Junior had been busted for steroids how long did he get banned for? seems a shame he was clearly very talented and likely would have still been pretty amazing anyway.
I do wonder what a lot of these sportsmen do with their money footballers are the same in the UK they earn millions and yet you often hear that they end up potless is it bad business investments? or do they have expensive habits I wonder?.

 

Knockout,

If you want a serious debate, I'll gladly have one with you. I know people write rubbish on here just to get a rise out of people, but it gets boring. I can see how it would be amusing to them, but surely it's better to have a good debate, rather than winding people up?

I've discussed the Steroid issue to death with Headbanger on the thread Did Roy lose when his competition stepped up by Bailey, which i'm sure you've read. You're implying that Roy was roiding his whole career until Hall. Then afterwards he wasn't. There's absolutely no proof whatsoever that he was roiding his whole career. That's just your opinion isn't it? Roids wouldn't give him amazing reflexes and help him throw lightening combinations etc. I've been told that roids give you fantastic stamina. Well Roy's always had stamina issues, even in the mid 90's, he used to back onto the ropes for a breather.

He fought a string of taxi drivers you say. Only he didn't did he? He fought a few bums as everyone does, but he beat some good fighters. Why don't you stop winding people up and have a serious debate? You'll get more out of it. Ruiz was a paper champion? Ruiz wasn't a great fighter, we all know this. But, he was coming off of a win over Holyfield and it was a dangerous fight for Roy. How the hell could he have been tailor made for Roy?

He was a 16 stone + heavyweight. Roy moved up by 20 pounds to face him, and was still outweighed by another 20 + pounds, but because Ruiz wasn't Ali from 1964, it's an easy win for Roy that doesn't mean anything right? It's a joke. Roy had no idea how the extra weight would affect him. A lot of respected journalists and fighters had Ruiz to win. You're saying he was tailor made because of Roy's speed, and the fact that Ruiz wasn't great. But you have to take into consideration, Ruiz was stronger, more powerful and was naturally around 4 stones heavier. If it was that easy for a former 160/168 fighter to move up to heavy, then more fighters would have done it.

When he came back from heavy he was finished. He killed his body by losing 20 pounds in just 2 months. He burnt all of his muscle fibres by doing nothing much but run, and he ended up losing all of his great attributes. You saw it. He had nothing left in the tank after the 9th round of the first Tarver fight. Against Johnson he looked like a zombie. He lost every single round to Johnson before being brutally knocked out.

According to Roy, the reason he was out for so long, was due to the fact that he was dehydrated. The ringside medical staff said he shouldn't have been near a ring because of how dehydrated he was. You're implying that he only won because of roids. And then when he stopped taking them he lost. But acording to you he stopped taking roids in 2000. He didn't lose until 2004 though. So he managed without his roids for 4 years.

But if i ask you how he did this, you'll simply say, Harding, Gonzalez, Ruiz were all garbage so he didn't need them. Right? Tarver and Johnson caught him at the right time. It has nothing to do with roids. He simply destroyed his body by the dramatic weight loss. If you don't think that was a factor, then you're saying he just to Tarver and Johnson, just because they were better fighters than him, which is complete nonsense.

I'm going to ask you a question. I've asked this question 4 times, and I still haven't got an answer. The question is:

Pre Ruiz, say in 2002, could/would Glencoffe Johnson have been able to knock out Roy? Not only knock him out, but to win every single round before knocking him out? The question doesn't need answering does it. The answer is obvious to everyone.

Glencoffe Johnson would have had virtually no chance of beating Roy before the weight loss. It has nothing to do with stepping up in competition or him not taking his roids. Roy wasn't the same fighter after Ruiz. If you've no sympathy, that's fine by me, but the weight loss isn't an excuse, it's there for every one to see.

He was 35 with 50 fights, and he lost everything that he once had. In my honest opinion, there's no way Johnson, Tarver, Calzaghe, Lebedev, and Green would have beaten Roy pre Ruiz.

Finally, I don't believe Roy has money problems. Just because he got a huge tax bill last year, that doesn't mean he couldn't afford to pay it. He's made millions and millions. Murad Muhammad made him $17 million for the Ruiz fight alone. He doesn't need the money. He does it because he can't let go. He's got an 18 year olds head, on a 43 year olds body. He doesn't need to fight guys like Max Alexander in front of a few hundred people for money.

Hopefully he'll retire soon.

Now get back to me if you want a serious debate, instead of stating that he's a glass jawed fraud who only beat dinnerladies on roids. Stop winding people up, and lets have a proper debate, with opinions and facts, without all the name calling etc.

:good

 

It is a shame he is quite articulate he would be great as a commentator am sure he can earn money doing something else, sad thing is like with Holyfield it is the refusal to give up or give in that makes them great comes back to bite them in the end as they often fight on far too long.

I have only seen a little bit ofBute but he does look good Froch is tough as they come though and as Jermain Taylor found out even when he is way behing he carries power through the fight, he did look flat against Ward though but a lot of that is the fact that Ward is very very good I think Froch needs to change his guard a bit against faster oopnents and employ a higher guard or he will get beaten to the punch I think.